Megan Riksen:

Hello and welcome to the Work Like a Laker podcast. I'm Megan Riksen and today I am joined by my cohost Grace Pushman. Hi, Grace.

Grace Pushman:

Hi Megan. How are you? I'm great. Thanks.

Megan Riksen:

So let's talk a little bit about the resume black hole. I think, you know what I mean? But have you ever applied to a position online and just never heard anything back a lot, right? Yes. Right. Same. And it can be really frustrating because you've spent all this time updating your resume, writing a cover letter, filling out those applications, the applications alone take so much time to fill out and then you're waiting and waiting and waiting. Maybe you get an automated response saying thank you so much for applying, but sometimes you don't even get that. And you're just kind of left wondering, because you haven't talked to an actual human or heard her heard from a real person.

Megan Riksen:

So what's happening in those cases is that typically that company or organization is using what is called an applicant tracking system. So we're going to go into a lot of detail. We're going to refer to them as an ATS. Um, so you're going to hear us say that over and over again. Um, but basically these, these ATS, they're, it's ATS software. It's a system that a company is using that kind of works a little bit like a spam filter does for your email account. Um, which means that it's estimated that actually about 72% of resumes are never even seen by the human eye. So I could be applying to something and a human is not even looking at my application. Yes, exactly. Because this applicant tracking system is doing that kind of first screen of your resume before it gets passed on to the recruiter or hiring manager, whoever it is, that's going to be reviewing those resumes.

Megan Riksen:

So we want to talk today about how you navigate an ATS so that you do get to a real human, right. Um, and before we kinda jump into that, we did just want to note that 60 to 80% of jobs are found through networking. So we're not going to be talking about networking. We have other episodes, um, please refer back to them on that very subject. We're going to dig into kind of the nitty gritty of the applicant tracking system and how to best navigate that. Um, but just know that that sometimes you can even entirely circumvent needing to submit your resume online, or it just becomes a formality. If you actually are talking to a person first at a career fair, reaching out, whatever that may be. Um, so just wanted to make sure we were mentioning that before we jump into the nitty-gritty here.

Grace Pushman:

Yes. Good point Megan. Uh, and I can, I can share the first sort of, uh, piece of information about these ATS, uh, programs that are run through companies. So one is how to even determine if an organization is using one. So if you're applying somewhere and you're wondering, do I need to treat this as though it's going to be reviewed by an ATS? One way to figure that out is by looking at the page where the job description is. So I'm going to give you a concrete example with spectrum, because I was going through just to see what it looked like, um, when companies were using these programs. And so, uh, I went to spectrum, I did I Googled spectrum careers. That's always like a helpful way to like, to bring you right to where the jobs are. So when I did that, I clicked on, you know, the page that has the careers listed.

Grace Pushman:

And then I did, um, apply to like specific ones. Then I found one for a nurse technician or something like that. So when you get to a specific job that you're going to apply to, it will bring you to a page that should give you the job description, what the requirements are, et cetera. You've seen those before and on that page, that's where you can often see at the very bottom of the page, a little logo. And it could say a variety of different things because there's a lot of different ETS programs out there or companies out there. And so the one at spectrum says, Workday, it's a little tiny logo. It says, Workday, if you want to see an example, go to their website, you can see this. Uh, and basically it will say something others in the organization. So it doesn't say spectrum, it says something else, right?

Grace Pushman:

Uh, other companies will use this as well. If basically at the bottom, it says the company's name. That means that they're handling the resumes and applications themselves. If it says a different name, that means it's an ATS program. So if that's too tricky or maybe sometimes it's not obvious, I don't think it's always obvious. Then just a good general rule to go by is that if you're applying to a large organization, they probably are using one. So again with spectrum, it's a very large organization. Oh, I, I did GM as an example as well. Um, they use the same one as spectrum. I believe when I was looking, but again, large organization, you can kind of just assume that they will be using this sort of program. So that's one way. And if it's a smaller company, they most likely aren't because these programs cost a lot of money.

Grace Pushman:

So if you know, they're a smaller organization and they're only having so many applicants, they don't need to spend the money to have the software, to, to filter out resumes and applications for them. So that's just another general rule is large company. You probably just need to treat it like an ATS, smaller company. You don't need to necessarily worry about that. Right. I think that's a pretty good rule of thumb. Yes. Yeah. As you're going through that, the tips that we give for ATS probably are good anyway, regardless of whether or not. So you can still use these tips for any application you send in. Agreed. Yeah. Agreed. Okay. So let's, let's dig a little deeper into how, how these work. So when a job is posted, um, the recruiter who's doing that posting of that position online is then going to be telling that ATS what to screen for.

Megan Riksen:

So that recruiter is putting in ATS. I want you to use these key words, these phrases putting in specific criteria that obviously aligns with the job description, um, so that they're teaching that ATS to identify the expected competencies, the education level, um, any of those other skill sets, whatever it may be, um, that they're looking for specifically in hiring for that role, they are going to program the ATS to figure out how to make a match from a candidates, resume to a position for some of the hard to fill positions. Let's say it's something that's super specialized, where there aren't going to maybe be a ton of candidates applying. Um, the manager, they, they may opt to not include a bunch of screening criteria because they just want to see all of the candidates, but for an entry level position, typically those are the ones where the screening tools are necessary.

Megan Riksen:

They're getting, you know, just a ton of resumes coming in. Um, so they're going to put in a lot of those key words that the ATS is going to be looking for to really narrow down that large field of applicants. Um, and just something to keep in mind is that these ATS, they, they do the screening, but it also serves as like the management tool of these applications and resumes and cover letters. It really is a database for that organization as well. So it's going to be housing that information, keeping track of it. Um, so you know, a company could have your resume for a very long time. So, you know, it's always good to kind of be aware of that. And if you're applying to something new, updating your resume, right. Like making sure that you're kind of playing the game a little bit with that.

Grace Pushman:

Yeah. Good point. Um, and what we talked about updating resumes, one tip for using an ATS is to always tweak your resume for each application that you put in. So not only do you want to update it, you know, just throughout your application process, but each job that you apply for you, do you want to change it somewhat to tailor it to that specific job description so that you can pass through the ATS? So for example, if you're looking at a job description and they say that they want someone who has leadership experience, make sure on your resume, you have the word leadership look for those key words. And what I would even recommend is print out that job description and take a highlighter and highlight buzzwords that they use and make sure you're putting those in your materials because that's how that's, what will help you pass through that system.

Grace Pushman:

Um, another thing for example, would be if you're bilingual and this position is asking for someone who's bilingual, make sure that is on your materials, that I guarantee is something that they're going to be scanning for. Um, you know, certain degrees, certain certifications. If they're saying that they're requiring those, make sure that seems obvious, but make sure it's written on your resume that you have that, um, same thing with, you know, technical skills, hard skills. So, you know, for example, if you're applying for a marketing position or graphic design position and they want someone who knows Adobe have that on your resume, they, I guarantee again, that's going to be something that they're scanning for. So think about those keywords. You can use pull them from the job description. You might even use specific phrasing from the job description. You're probably not going to copy a whole sentence, but you can pull phrases.

Grace Pushman:

I think from your time as a student, you're taught not to plagiarize. So I think you're so worried, you know, not to pull directly from sources. This is one time where it's okay to kind of mimic their language a little bit because that's what they're going to be looking for. So make sure you're doing that. And again, each job that you apply for, regardless of if it's an ATS or not, you should be looking at that job description and taking just 20 minutes to go through your resume and swap out words for ones that fit what they're looking for, you know, swap out some of your strengths, et cetera, for what they're looking for, your skills. Uh, and then finally, one way you can double check to see how well you did is using a tool called job scan. I believe it's just job scan.com.

Grace Pushman:

And it is a tool that you can use that you will upload your resume and then upload your, the job description. And it will show you how much it matches up with each other. And you can then go from there and tweak it more if you need to, if it's not a high enough match, I will say, I think job scan, you know, your first month, I think you get five free scans and the, um, for the month. And then after that, it's two free scans a month. If you want more than that, you have to pay. So just be aware that it's probably one to maybe the first time you're trying this method to use it and see how you do. And then from there on out only maybe use it for the jobs that you're most excited about or something like that. Um, but yeah, just make sure every single application that you do go through and rewrite parts of it to match the job and that that can apply even for jobs that have the exact same job title.

Megan Riksen:

Yes. Right. So let's go with the graphic design example. It's a graphic designer, entry-level position at Company A okay, you're printing that out. You're circling, you're highlighting keywords, you're matching. It could be the exact same job title, graphic designer at a different company. And they could be looking for completely different, maybe not skills, but just the way they're describing what they want that person to do. You can do a better job of matching that up. So it really is not like a one size fits all resume. Even if the things you're applying for are very, very similar, still good to go company by company. And you don't have to recreate the wheel. You don't have to completely redo your resume. Like we said, it's just more of skimming through it and pulling out the parts that will be, you know, easy to swap for different words to match each job.

Megan Riksen:

Yes. Right. So when it comes to formatting your resume, then once you kind of have the content down, those keywords, you've really tailored everything as much as possible. Um, the advice we're going to give next kind of flies in the face of maybe what you would expect, um, in terms of format. So, you know, if you're thinking about making a visually beautiful resume, um, maybe you're using, uh, a system like Adobe design to create that or Canva. Um, and you, it looks beautiful and it's great, and it's easy to read by a human, but I'm going to tell you that is not something that an ATS will be able to read when it comes to submitting your applications online. I would say you always, always, always want to keep it simple, no graphics, no pictures, no even embedded text boxes or tables, all of those really mess with the ATS.

Megan Riksen:

Um, cause it, you know, depending on the ATS now, there, there are probably hundreds of them. So they all function differently. Um, so just, you know, removing any of that special formatting is super helpful. And then the other big tip is you do not want to submit as a PDF. Um, PDFs are great at keeping your format intact. So let's say you are networking with someone and you're sending your resume to them. And the resume as an attachment in an email, absolutely use a PDF. That's going to be the best way for that human to see the design and all the elements on your resume. But when you're submitting via the ATS, a simple Word document is going to be the best. So really that docx format, um, that is what's going to pass through the ATS with the most, you know, with the highest frequency.

Megan Riksen:

So, um, use that file type. Of course always follow the directions though, if you're, you know, submitting an online application and it says, copy and paste everything into this. Yup. You're going to do that. If it says upload a PDF, please do that. Um, but absolutely in most cases really that that Word document is going to be the best way to, to get through so that the ATS can actually read it.

Grace Pushman:

Yeah. Good point. And speaking of readability, along with the format, a common format that I see is columns. Like it's split down the middle where half the resume is on the left side and half is on the right. What do you think about those Meagan? Do those work with ATS? Probably not as well as a single column. I'm sure there are some that can read it, but I would imagine, cause that's kind of an automatic, like text boxes almost like there's, there's some additional formatting going on.

Megan Riksen:

Yep. So you're, I think you're just decreasing your chances of it getting through.

Grace Pushman:

Okay. And that's, and I think that's a tough pill to swallow for a lot of people because you want your resume to look great, but sometimes simple as the best. And just having it read from top to bottom right. Left to right. Is how you want it to be good. Okay. Um, so, you know, once you apply to these programs, you might be thinking now, what did it pass through a simple way to determine that as if you got a call. So if you're, I know that, you know, I, before the job I have now as a career advisor, I used to be a teacher. And those of you who are applying for jobs within the K-12 education system, you would probably know, I think it's called K12 job spot. It might have changed, but it uses a system.

Grace Pushman:

You put all of your applications through the same thing. I know when I first graduated and was applying for teaching positions, I applied to at least 30, like just applying to any job that I was qualified for, where I would be teaching. And I heard nothing back. The only people I heard back from was when I knew someone at the school. And so I think in that case, you know, this was before I was a career advisor and I didn't know about ATS. I didn't know about this process. And so I think, you know, if you're having that same experience, you need to go through your materials and double-check go to job scan.com, come into the career center, have one of your, one of our advisors, look over your resume with you and give you some tips specifically regarding how to make it pass through an ATS.

Grace Pushman:

Um, so that's really the best way is just to know, like, are you getting calls back? And if not, you probably need to make some changes. And then another thing to remember is that if yours does pass through the ATS, it will go on to a person. And they're probably only taking 30 seconds on average to look through that resume. So make sure, you know, I guess again, those tips that we give you for ATS really also work for people because you do, you want it to be straightforward. You want it to be easy to read. If someone's only taking 30 seconds, think about that is yours skimmable in 30 seconds, can they find the key things? They need to find those skills that they're really looking for, make sure that they stand out to a human eye as well. And so again, if you're not getting those calls, come in, let us look it over with you.

Grace Pushman:

We can give you some tips for that and also use the job scan. Yeah.

Megan Riksen:

That's great advice. So then kind of the final steps of this process, um, as grace said of, of course, you'll, you'll get an email, you get a call hopefully to set up an interview once your, um, resume and application has been passed through. Um, but the, the recruiter who then receives all of those resumes that the ATS says, yep, these, you know, 20% of applicants should move on. The recruiter then is taking a look at those, passing them on to the hiring manager. So that recruiter then gets it even, you know, to a smaller set of, um, applicants and sends it over to the hiring manager who then is making some of those final determinations for bringing in a candidate for an interview. So, um, we mentioned networking at the beginning.

Megan Riksen:

How can networking help with a company that's using an ATS? I think there's actually a lot that you can do there. Um, because you often will still have to apply to an ATS regardless of if you know someone at that organization or not. However, and I have this happen with students all the time. If they know somebody there that recruiter that hiring manager is going to pluck that resume out of the system potentially and already put it in the pile that isn't, you know, they'll pull it out of the ATS without the ATS, maybe even saying, yes, this person is qualified because they know they want to take a second look at that resume. Um, so that's where kind of making sure you have a foot in the door in some way, um, will help so that it doesn't fall into that, that black hole.

Grace Pushman:

Right. And even simple things, you know, you might not have an uncle that works at a company, but if you met someone at a career fair and you apply to a position there even just simply sending an email saying, thanks again for that great conversation at the grand valley career fair because of that conversation and inspired me to apply. And I just sent my materials and wanted to let you know, let you know, and thanks again, something simple. So simple again, that might inspire them to go check and say that, yeah, they have that name recognition, they'll see your name. And they probably, you know, if you had a great conversation with that person, they're likely going to move you forward in the process. Yeah. Can't hurt. It's not going to hurt. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So this is a pretty technical topic. Um, there aren't any, you know, real right or wrong answers as, uh, as with anything with resumes, but you know, just really keeping that, that rule of thumb of the file type and the simplicity of the resume that you are sending via the online application that the ATS will be reviewing and then, you know, feel free to still have a designed resume.

Megan Riksen:

That is a PDF that you're sending out via email that, you know, if you're actually handing a resume to someone rate, you can definitely send them one that, that you spent some more time on the design. I think particularly if you're in a field where that's going to impress a future employer, I would make sure that I have that one I'm sending online, but that I also have, you know, the pretty one that I am sending to get directly in front of someone. So it, it, you know, it's creating more work for you cause we're talking about multiple versions. Um, but I think it, it can have a big payoff and yeah, you definitely want to make sure you can get through these ATS. So, um, anything else grace, or I think we've kind of covered it here. I think that covered it. And again, just to reiterate, feel free to come chat with us about this because it is technical. It can be stressful, I think. And we're happy to go through this with you, for sure. We have our career lab that's open every day during the week. Um, that is just a drop in service. So feel free to just quickly drop in and say, you know, what do you think is this gonna make it through an ATS? And we would, we would love to help with that. So. Great. All right. Thanks so much to everyone for listening and we hope you tune into a future episode soon.