Megan Riksen:

Hello and welcome to the Work Laker a Laker podcast. I'm Megan Rickson. And today my co-host is Brian Bossick. Hi, Brian.

Brian Bossick:

Hey Megan, how are you?

Megan Riksen:

I'm good. How are you doing

Brian Bossick:

Good. Glad to be here today.

Megan Riksen:

Yes. So we, we have a, a good topic, an important topic to tackle today because unfortunately the workplace is not immune to racism. And one of the most common ways to witness racism is in the form of microaggressions. So microaggressions are incidents in which someone accidentally, maybe purposely, hopefully accidentally makes an offensive statement or asks even just an insensitive question. Microaggressions are defined as verbal behavioral and environmental indignities that communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative racial slights and insults to the target person or group. So, Brian, can you think of some ways that this might come up in the workplace, these little microaggressions?

Brian Bossick:

You bet let's maybe talk about three examples. Yeah. just to get a started and then, and we'll kind of go from there. Sounds good. Okay. so the first one, if you hear someone say that they're colorblind which I, I think we, we do hear a fair amount. Yes. But that singles to a person that they don't acknowledge their skin color or won't hold it against them. So a second example might be, if somebody said, well, we're all one race the human race, which implies, we all go through the same experiences regardless of race, regardless of our background. And so that would be another thing to consider. And I think the third thing that comes to mind is let's, let's take this one that we're always asking the same person to coordinate lunch, to make copies et cetera, even when it's not their role, just because there's an assumption that you've created that that's what this person you should do.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah. Interesting. So right. When you take these kind of on their face, especially as a white person, it might be easy to be like, well, yeah, of course I don't, you know, treat people differently because of the color of their skin, but we just know historically, typically all institutionally these things, it's just not true. People are treated differently. So saying some of these things or treating someone in this way, even if it's not intentional, still is something that needs to be fixed.

Brian Bossick:

Absolutely. And we're excited to be able to talk to you just about "A" your awareness building. If you do see these things and "B" what you can do.

Megan Riksen:

So yes, that's a big thing, right?

Brian Bossick:

It really is.

Megan Riksen:

What can we do about this?

Brian Bossick:

Yes. And so we're gonna talk to, if you are a bystander, if you see this happening, we just wanna give you some examples to help you say, well, what can I do in that moment? So you yourself don't feel paralyzed and walk away wondering what should I have done.

Megan Riksen:

Exactly. And, you know, I think sometimes the biggest worry from people who witness a microaggression is that they don't wanna make things worse. They think if I, I intervene in some way, just gonna make it worse. These people know each other, somehow I shouldn't, you know, get in the way. But yeah, as you were saying, like thinking about some of the techniques that we might use beforehand can help you to be more comfortable, more able to step in more confident in your ability to do that. So we're gonna talk about five techniques that you can consider when deciding how you might want to intervene in any sort of these types of situations.

Brian Bossick:

And I think for both of us, it's important before we get started to acknowledge our own privilege. Because as we talk about this, we are coming from certain areas of privilege and background. So Megan and I are white. I'm a CIS man. You may not feel for yourself, you might not feel comfortable intervening in certain situations based on your race, your gender, sexuality, or, or other identities you have. And we wanna acknowledge that and encourage you to stay safe during those situations. So if that's something that you're aware of, again, think about safety and also then think about some of these tips and how you may intervene later if it's not in the moment.

Megan Riksen:

Absolutely. And I think it's so situational. Right. And in some situations, yeah, there, you might have some safety, but yeah. Evaluating your surroundings and environment I think is, is pretty key to that depending on kind of where you're coming from.

Brian Bossick:

Absolutely.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah. Great. So thanks so much for mentioning that. Brian, do you wanna to get us started with the first technique?

Brian Bossick:

I sure can. So we're gonna talk about five different techniques. And the first one we're gonna talk about is distraction. And so for example, this is one where let's say you come into into your office and you see two people talking and you realize that what you're, what you're hearing is one person is, is committing a microaggression. And there another person is the recipient of that. The key technique of distraction is basically for yourself, you jump in there and maybe you change the subject, right? So you come into that conversation, you throw a question that takes the person who's committing the microaggression off topic and in a....

Megan Riksen:

Forces them to just change gears completely.

Brian Bossick:

Exactly. Redirect the conversation. If it's not something you can do verbally, you might even think about like a physical distraction you could cause, so you've spilled your water, you've bumped the table. Oops. You know, so you all your papers.

Megan Riksen:

I'm so clumsy.

Brian Bossick:

Yes. Which I think most of us don't have to fake. Right. So we can do that. The key point is, so after you've done that distraction, when the conversations die down, check in with the person who experienced that microaggression, see if they're okay. Cuz at that point you may have created that distraction just to stop it and then also check in a little bit later.

Megan Riksen:

Yes, absolutely. I think that check-in is pretty key. Absolutely. As well. Good. Okay. So the second one is delegate and you might be noticing a theme that I don't think we pointed out all of these techniques start with a D

Brian Bossick:

We didn't say that yet.

Megan Riksen:

We didn't say the five "D"s. Right. And so maybe that is also, you know, just another way to kind of remember these things and when you're, when you kind of, I mean, I guess for me, yeah. If you step into something that feels tense and you, you can sense from the person who's, you know, on the receiving end of that microaggression. Yeah. It's really easy to kind of forget everything and wanna just walk away. Absolutely. Right. So yeah, maybe the, the five D's can be helpful here. Good. So if you see a microaggression the Delegate strategy would be, is there someone with more power that you can tap in? So, Hey Marsha, I know you don't Daniel, well, maybe you want to check in on him because of blank. So you noticed something and maybe you didn't feel comfortable or weren't able to, to step in because the power dynamic or something that was going I think it absolutely then makes sense to yeah. Maybe go to someone else in the office or in another office, someone who maybe knows both of the parties and can step in, maybe that's even human resources that's should be a, a pretty neutral party that should have some knowledge about how to help someone. So yeah, delegating that to someone else. Like don't always feel that it has to be all on you to make this better. You're making it better maybe by, by pulling in someone who has a little more power.

Brian Bossick:

Excellent, great, great point. And our third technique is document. So let's say that you're online in a classroom chat and you see something that is said that is harmful. That is hurtful, that it's a microaggression, take a screenshot, save that. If you walk into the middle of a conversation where a microaggression is occurring after you leave, write it down. So you've got in your mind while it's fresh and then give it to the person who experienced that say, Hey, I wanna let you know, I took a record of this. So one thing to think about with document is it's something that we often use in conjunction with a lot of the other D's, right? So it might be delay and then you talk to somebody and then you've got the documentation. So that is our third technique that is document.

Megan Riksen:

Right. And that's, I mean, documentation is powerful.

Brian Bossick:

It is to have a record. And just to, I think sometimes we forget and to really see how many times something happened

Megan Riksen:

Right. I mean, how I, I can see if I was the person who had the microaggression commited against me to have somebody say, Hey, I snapped a screenshot of that, that comment in the chat wasn't cool. Absolutely. They should not have said that. What can we do to make this better? I snap that screenshot just to make, make sure we all remembered exactly what was said. So yeah, I think it, it definitely is a way of giving, giving some power back.

Brian Bossick:

Absolutely

Megan Riksen:

Good. Okay. So that was the document.

Brian Bossick:

That was our document technique.

Megan Riksen:

Awesome. So let's move on to number four, which is Delay. So once the incident is over, as we've kind of mentioned, really good to check in with that person you know, just a simple, I saw what happened. Can we figure out a way to help you navigate this situation? I'm here to help, right? Maybe that person doesn't want help and that's totally fine. But if they're open to it, if you ask the question, do you need anything? You know, maybe throw out, wanna go grab a coffee a minute, or can we just take a walk around the building and get some fresh air? Even if you don't, I mean, it's not like you need to go and necessarily rehash everything, but sometimes it's just like, okay, we can, we can delay this. We can take, take a deep breath and then give it some time and space for that person to hopefully start feeling a little better and maybe then put together some sort of a plan for what to do.

Brian Bossick:

Yeah. And just to decompress. Right. Talk it over and see what comes up. Absolutely. Absolutely

Megan Riksen:

Good. Good. Okay. So that was delay.

Brian Bossick:

All right. And for our fifth and final technique is to be direct. So this may be a situation where you are in a conversation and it is getting, is getting very uncomfortable and you could take the direct route where you say, you know, stereotypes like that, they don't belong here. Let's, let's change the question, right. Just really calling out what you see in order to stop. What is becoming really difficult and hurtful. The other part about being direct is if somebody else jumps in before and says something, here's your opportunity to support them. Like, hey, I agree with that. Let's let's move on. Right. This, this isn't appropriate, let's change the question.

Megan Riksen:

Yes. And sometimes that directness, I think for the person who maybe is committing that microaggression, it might just kind of snap them out of it. Especially if they didn't know that they were doing something that was harmful or hurtful to someone else that might just be like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's, you know, talk about something else or move on to something else.

Brian Bossick:

That's a really good point because it brings it right to the forefront.

Megan Riksen:

Exactly.

Brian Bossick:

Absolutely.

Megan Riksen:

Directness is always a good strategy, but maybe not, maybe not everybody feels as comfortable being direct. Right. So that's why you, you also have the other four DS to kind of rely on as well for what fits your style of how you might wanna intervene as standard.

Brian Bossick:

Exactly. Or like you said if somebody else is direct support that, right? Yes. That's your chance to kind, jump and gain the momentum, make a difference and then, and test out what works for you.

Megan Riksen:

You all become a team together to help,

Brian Bossick:

I like that. Yes.

Megan Riksen:

Good. Okay.

Brian Bossick:

So that was number five. That was be direct.

Megan Riksen:

Be direct. Awesome. Okay. So we've covered the five techniques, distract, delegate, document, delay, and direct. So Brian, I'm gonna throw it over to you of those five, which do you think you'd feel the most comfortable doing?

Brian Bossick:

Probably a combination of two. Good. Yes. So I was, I, I don't think it's just one. So a combination of two just knowing like myself and my style, I would probably focus a little bit more on distract and delay. And then what I usually like to do is when I've seen these things happen is check in a little bit later. And so unless it's something where I feel like I need to be direct right away. But you usually it's distracting delay. Yeah. Yeah. How about yourself, Megan?

Megan Riksen:

You know, I'm gonna be boring and choose the same ones, Brian. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Just because yeah, they feel, I think they would feel the most natural to me. I'm really good at distracting people. Cause I have little people who live in my house. Yes. And when they're like having a tantrum or something, you just need to distract them and they stop doing that. So I can apply that to someone who's committing a microaggression, we can like distract

Brian Bossick:

And it works really

Megan Riksen:

Well do something else and it works.

Brian Bossick:

It does. It totally does. That's awesome. And you'll probably find like over time that you use a, of these five, right? Like, so in certain situations you find that these two are the prime ones that with family and friends, something else might be the, the main one. Totally.

Megan Riksen:

Absolutely. I think that's a good point. So yeah, we've been focusing a little bit more on kind of the context of what might happen in the workplace, but yeah. What are some of the other spaces and places where mircoaggressions might come up where, where it would make sense to you?

Brian Bossick:

Bet. You know, I think two come to mind, right? Like this might be one of those things where let's say it's, you're, you're out to eat with someone or, you know, let's as a student you're in, you're eating, let's say at, I suddenly blanked on Panda Express, Fresh. Thank you. Right. And, and you hear a conversation.

Megan Riksen:

It's been a long time since we've all been on campus.

Brian Bossick:

It has been. But you're in, you're at Panda or you're at fresh food and you're at a table and you hear this happen. Yeah. And so knowing that in that moment, you can do one of these techniques too. And this might also be something you notice, let's say off campus when you're a family. Yep. Right. And thinking about, well, how do I feel comfortable intervening with, and sometimes that can even be more complicated because your relationship is already there.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah. So if you, there are so many layers with family and family dynamics and you know, so much maybe about the person who's committing the microaggression, but you wanna stick up for the cousin or the person in your family, you yeah who isn't gonna be feeling too great from the comments.

Brian Bossick:

And we would just encourage you in that moment to try, try one, try whatever, and you know, try. And if it doesn't go perfect. That's that's okay. Right. That's great. You've got a lot in your toolbox to pull from. Yes. And so just hold onto one of them, jump in, see how it goes and you can always follow up. Yeah. So as you all hear this, think about definitely school, definitely work, but also you might find many applications for this in all areas of real life.

Megan Riksen:

The classroom, I think...

Brian Bossick:

Exactly.

Megan Riksen:

Right. Like, oh my goodness. There are so many opportunities when, especially around certain topics. Yes. You know, you're in a sociology class or a psych class or even something in healthcare. I could just see that there's so many topics where the discussion in the classroom could get heated. People might say things that could yeah, really be hurtful to certain groups.

Brian Bossick:

Absolutely.

Megan Riksen:

Certain people. Yeah. Good. Okay. Yeah. I think we've, we've covered our, our five D's one final topic we want to touch on before we wrap up today is to acknowledge that you might find yourself committing a microaggression or being accused of one. Right. And if that's the case, we, you recommend that you focus on your impact, not your intent. So you might think, oh my gosh, I definitely did not mean to hurt you when I said that. But if my words hurt you, that's what matters. So you always wanna be seeking to listen and understand, believe your colleagues of color, believe your colleagues who are members of the LGBTQ community. Right. Any of these groups that really take the brunt of these microaggressions. And a sincere apology really can go a long way. Right. So don't dwell it, apologize, move on, do better the next time.

Brian Bossick:

Yeah. And I would add that it's important to to keep from getting defensive. And that can be hard sometimes when, when somebody brings something up, as you mentioned, Megan, that you didn't mean to, but again, assessing your impact. Right.

Megan Riksen:

Cause as humans were like, oh no, no, no, no. I didn't mean to do that. I didn't. That was I

Brian Bossick:

Exactly.

Megan Riksen:

Yes. And you kind of feel like your back's up against the wall.

Brian Bossick:

A and on, on the full kind of picture of that. It often takes a lot of courage to speak up, you know? Mm. Think about, as we're talking about our five DS, because it's hard to speak up. If someone speaks up to you respect that courage, respect what they said. And take their feedback in

Megan Riksen:

Exactly. Believe them exactly. Believe that their feelings are true and real. Yeah.

Brian Bossick:

Absolutely.

Megan Riksen:

Great. Good. Okay. Well, thanks. I, I think that's, you know, pretty much how we'll wrap up today's podcast. We will certainly leave some resources in the show notes. We have a link to a free bystander intervention training through I hollow back which I know some of the colleagues in our office have done that. And it's a good one. So check that out if you want to learn more yeah. Don't forget to subscribe to our channel. We can be found on apple podcasts or wherever you stream your content. So yeah, by subscribing, we can, you can keep hearing from us hearing our, we would, we would love for you to keep joining us. So anything else for the good of the podcast today, Brian?

Brian Bossick:

I don't think so. Thank you for listening today. And we hope that some of the tips that we've provided help you when in all the different situations you may encounter this.

Megan Riksen:

Yes, absolutely. Great. Well, thanks everyone. And we hope you tune in to a future episode soon.