Megan Riksen:

Hello and welcome to the Work Like a Laker podcast. I'm Megan Riksen, and today I am joined by my co-host, Brian Bossickk. And we're going to be tackling a topic that we find to be pretty common among college students and new grads, and probably all people, and that is imposter syndrome. So Brian, let's start by, I'm, you know, I'm just going to throw it out there. When was the time that you felt like an imposter?

Brian Bossick:

Oh, that is a great question. Yeah, I was thinking there. So right when I graduated from college and started grad school, we had the chance to to teach some introductory courses as part of like a graduate assistantship. And so at like 22 or 23 going to teach intro to psych, I was terrified. And I think it was a matter of like prepping and trying to talk yourself up and practicing just to feel like you know what you're talking about.

Megan Riksen:

Yes, over preparation, right.

Brian Bossick:

Over preparation. Totally. And then I remember the first day, like walking to go from my first class, running into the bathroom for a second to like put water on my face, and then the sink splashed up. So I was soaked.

Megan Riksen:

No! No!

Brian Bossick:

Yes! And then going in there and basically owning it and, and like, hey, I was going to try to do this, and now it's not.

Megan Riksen:

And yeah, not so much

Brian Bossick:

Went Ookay, eventually, but that definitely came to mind when you asked that question. Definitely.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah.

Brian Bossick:

How about you?

Megan Riksen:

Yeah, I was also trying to think along like the career-lines. And for the Career Center, now I do all of our marketing and communications, but by training, I'm a career advisor, so there have been some spaces, you know at like professional development things where I'm with fellow marketers, where the imposter syndrome definitely creeps in because I don't have the training. I just, I, you know, I've kind of figured it out as I've gone here in the Career Center and, you know, I think it's going okay. But yeah, definitely when you're around people who like got their degree in that and have been working for 10 years in that space, yeah. Those feelings can create that.

Brian Bossick:

And they know all the lingo and the small shortcuts.

Megan Riksen:

Exactly. Yeah. So that's definitely had that a few times. Yeah. Cool. So, yeah, we've talked a little bit about imposter syndrome, but do you want to start off with some definitions?

Brian Bossick:

Actual definition? Sure. So I, I imagine for most of you, you probably heard this phrase before, but let's, let's kind of go to Oxford and see what do they say. So they say imposter syndrome is the persistent inability to believe that one's success is deserved or has been legitimately achieved. That hits with some heavy weight. If we break it down a little bit it, it describes extreme feelings of self doubt, feeling like a fraud or a phony, feeling like you aren't competent enough to be in your role and, and whatever that role may be. And oftentimes, like as we've said, it's kind of across the lifetime, we're going to hit those moments. Feeling like you've tricked all your peers or superiors, that's a, that's a really common thing too. It's like, you don't ask ask me questions.

Megan Riksen:

Why did they hire me?

Brian Bossick:

Yeah, that's right. Or feeling like you're constantly going to be exposed or unworthy to be in your position. And that, that fear that if you make one mistake or you say the wrong thing, that suddenly

Megan Riksen:

It's all just going to go down the tubes.

Brian Bossick:

The house of cards falls.

Megan Riksen:

Yep. So, yeah, I think a lot of you listening may already be familiar a little bit with this definition. I feel like it is, you know, a term we hear quite a bit, which I think is good because I think whenever you can identify a feeling that you're having, it makes it less powerful. Absolutely. So hopefully this is a good, like, feeling to identify, to put in your toolbox. But you know, it, I think it affects people all across the board, but definitely newer young professionals would be a group where, yeah. That first job out college, come on, you're going to feel young, you're going to feel inexperienced, and that's definitely going to bring on some feelings of imposterism.

Brian Bossick:

Yeah. And thinking about the kind of company you're working for and how long people have been there, it's, it's, it's kind of a loaded situation.

Megan Riksen:

Exactly. Another group that might be pretty affected by this would be people who have anxiety or depression who might already be struggling with mental health in one way or another. And this could potentially be, you know, kind of a compounding factor.

Brian Bossick:

Absolutely.

Megan Riksen:

High achievers or those who struggle with perfectionism, certainly if you're holding yourself to an extreme standard, you're probably imagining that other people are also, you know, holding you up that high. And then definitely people with marginalized identities, whether that's women, people of color people from the LGBTQ community, I I think yeah, it also tends to be a little more salient for those groups as well.

Brian Bossick:

Absolutely. And that fear of, like you said, being exposed and, what people might find out, right?

Megan Riksen:

Yeah. Yep. Exactly. imposter syndrome can occur in a variety of environments too. So we've kind of talked about in the workplace, but oh gosh, it can happen in academic settings. As a student, I definitely felt that, like a lot of memories just came flooding back when I said that.

Brian Bossick:

That sounds so true.

Megan Riksen:

Where you're just in a class and you're like, everybody else seems to know what's going on here. Why do I feel so lost?

Brian Bossick:

Did I miss the intro class? That was not on the books.

Megan Riksen:

What happened here? Other environments would be even in a relationship. Right.. With a partner, with your kids, right? The role of parenting can definitely bring up some feelings, like you're going to be exposed for not knowing what you're doing.

Brian Bossick:

From the moment you, yes. From the moment it starts.

Megan Riksen:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, so really any space, right? Where you're taking on a new role, something different because yeah, I will say, I think those feelings, especially in the career space, in in the workplace, do tend to go away. The longer you've been there, then the more comfortable you feel in a role. So yeah. In terms of your career, imposter syndrome can impact anyone from students to high level professionals. As we said, it often shows up in a new position or when you're starting grad school. But something else to think about is it might also kind of happen when you don't have reliable sources of feedback.

Brian Bossick:

That's a great point.

Megan Riksen:

Or evaluation, right? Yeah. When you don't have someone to say, you know what, you're, you're doing fine. You're brand new here, you're doing great kind of a thing. Right. Who can give you honest feedback to help you get better, but actually check the imposter syndrome too.

Brian Bossick:

Exactly. It's almost that idea too that if you don't have any feedback, I, I think that can be really terrifying because you don't know whether it's good or bad, but just having somebody to check in with.

Megan Riksen:

It takes you from being stuck in your own head. Yeah. It's important to note that imposter syndrome is different from experiencing and isolating, toxic, discriminatory environment. So that's not what we're talking about here. Imposter syndrome is more of an internal feeling that you don't deserve or you haven't legitimately achieved something. So with imposter syndrome, you may not feel that you belong, but this message is coming from within. It's more of an internalized belief, whereas a toxic environment can elicit kind of similar feelings of not feeling like you belong, but those messages are coming from external sources, behaviors from others, comments from others. We actually do have an episode back in season four called How to know if your workplace is Toxic, if you're unsure, if you're kind of in that toxic situation or if it's something that is more internally kind of motivated.

Brian Bossick:

Exactly. And I think that's, that's a huge thing to check out and a great episode to check out as you're trying to figure out, is this something I'm working on? Is this a combination? Absolutely. And it's important to figure it out because unchecked imposter syndrome can have negative impacts on your performance as a student at your job and your relationships. And as you kind of carry that out, it's long-term impacts on your self-esteem, anxiety levels, or like your overall mental health by feeling like you haven't legitimately earned your place. You, you might try to overcompensate, right. To work harder. But this can actually have the opposite result. It, it's kind of that idea that if you stop doing what helped you to get there, you really get off balance, then suddenly things are outta whack.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah. Right. That's very true.

Brian Bossick:

So, Megan and I have talked a lot about like imposter syndrome, kind of the negative impacts of that, but we, we wanted to flip it a little bit. And so we, we know what that looks like and you have a sense of what that looks like. But let's talk about if that's happening, how do we, how do we manage it? What can we do to kind of stave it off?

Megan Riksen:

And I think we have lots of good strategies to cover.

Brian Bossick:

Yes. We do.

Brian Bossick:

So if you identify with this, it's okay. A lot of things you can do.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah, it's okay. Maybe one or all of these, you know, strategies will be helpful. So the first one is kind of something we've already said, but acknowledge it. You know, the first step to taming imposter syndrome is to accept that you might be experiencing it. So if you're resonating with what we've talked about so far, or you're experiencing just some kind of unexplained anxiety that you're like, where is this coming from? Maybe it's about your ability to perform or your sense of belonging in a role. Those could be some signs that you're experiencing Imposter syndrome. But acknowledge it and know that imposter syndrome is normal. One synthesis of research reporting on the prevalence of imposter syndrome reports that up to 82% of people experience it at some point. It's so many.

Brian Bossick:

It is so many. It it really is almost across the board.

Megan Riksen:

Exactly. Exactly. You gotta have a pretty big ego is not the term I'm looking for. But just like sense of self, right. To never experience that. Yeah.

Brian Bossick:

Yeah. To never question.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah. So good for you if that's you. Right. But that is not me.

Brian Bossick:

Right. And if it is you, then help someone else who's struggling with it.

Megan Riksen:

There we go.

Brian Bossick:

Well second part of that kind of tied into that is like, second tip, talk about it. One of the, the defining characteristics of imposter syndrome is it's a hidden fear. So those that tend to experience that, they don't talk about it. But if you share how you're feeling with trusted peers or support networks, you can normalize your feelings, get guidance, talk about your strengths and something else to think about. So whether it's peer support networks or like therapy, if this has been something that you find keeps coming up, so as a student, in relationships, at your job, talk to a therapist, break it down a little bit, see where it's coming from. Sometimes there's even group therapy focused with new professionals. Others that are, are dealing with imposter syndrome. So finding that support.

Megan Riksen:

Sharing those stories. Right. It's so helpful just to hear somebody else talk about what they've been through.

Brian Bossick:

Yes. And the, the, the power that it takes away from it. It's amazing. It, it's not hidden.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. All right. Our next strategy is to focus on the facts. So many people experiencing imposter syndrome feel they're undeserving of their accomplishments, but don't really have accurate reasoning for justifying those feelings of doubt or incompetence. So focusing on evidence can really help people to rethink why they are deserving of their accomplishments and roles. So you know, maybe put pen to paper or, you know, bust out your laptop and start actually writing out a list of, you know, kind of like your resume, but less formal than that. Right. Like, here's certifications I have, here's some past accomplishments, here's some projects I'm really proud of. Here's some, like, things I can remember, a former boss or colleague or, you know classmate praising me for, giving me compliment for, awards, recognition that you've received. I don't care if that goes back to middle school. Some of those things you know, could still like, make you feel good. But for each accomplishment, you're going to further list out the actions you took or strengths you have that led to those accomplishments. That's great. So don't just stop with the list. Yeah. Kind of focus on, okay. What helped me to do that. For instance, if a graduate student is feeling like they aren't deserving of their role, they might take a look at their undergraduate transcript and think about all of the classes they took, the many, many hours they studied, the clubs they participated in and their actual completion of their bachelor's degree as just, you know, a good reminder to themselves that they're equipped and accomplished enough to be in the place where they are to earn this graduate degree.

Brian Bossick:

I, I think that is such a great strategy because you think about tunnel vision sets in. Right. And the only thing you're focusing on is what doesn't feel like you can do.

Megan Riksen:

Exactly.

Brian Bossick:

Yeah. Well, our next tip too, kind of similar to that, is cut the comparison. Right? If you think about it, the, there is a tendency for many of us is comparing our own abilities or areas of improvements with somebody else's strengths. And this can be a new professional questioning why they were hired when they're comparing themselves to a colleague with years of experience. I can think back to myself starting and working with someone who had a lot of years and watching how quickly and easily they did things, didn't have to prepare and thinking, what's, what's wrong with me?

Megan Riksen:

Like, why do I have to spend so much time doing this?

Brian Bossick:

Right. Am I doing it wrong? And, and so I, I think if you can cut the comparison when catching yourself in this mindset, remind yourself that everyone has different strengths, right. And that you've got your own, that person has their own and yours are going to grow. This is a process and where you're at right now, like there's a reason they hired you. On a side note, if you can, especially whether it's job or relationship or friendship related, try to limit exposure to social media where people only post their highlights or positive experiences and traits. This can help to mitigate those feelings of incompetence and self comparison.

Megan Riksen:

Right, like normally I don't think of you know, I think we hear a lot about social media and how it's bad for us and I tend to think more along the lines of like TikTok, Instagram. But in this case, like in a career workplace setting, LinkedIn can actually be kind of hurtful.

Brian Bossick:

Absolutely.

Megan Riksen:

I I know I was just talking with one of our interns here who is still looking for a job. Rockstar, right. They'll definitely find something amazing, but just how they can go on their feed on LinkedIn, and all these new grads being like, I got a job here, I got a job here. You know, and great. Like, celebrate your accomplishment and there's nothing wrong with that, but maybe not the best place when you're, when you're feeling this way to be looking at all of that.

Brian Bossick:

That is a great point. You think about it too, like if you're struggling at work, that's not something usually you post on there like, hey, right. Work is tough these days.

Megan Riksen:

Exactly.

Brian Bossick:

Yeah.

Megan Riksen:

Okay. So yeah, make time to celebrate is our next tip. Celebrations don't have to be limited just to kind of those huge things like graduating from college or getting a promotion or getting your first job. You can celebrate smaller accomplishments and that can be just as important as celebrating those bigger milestones because they happen more frequently. And they point to the work that you're doing on a daily basis. So, for example, if someone is feeling like an imposter in a job that relies on and praises communication, they might celebrate sharing their ideas in a meeting, you know? That actually is something we do in the Career center. At the beginning of our staff meetings, we always have a celebrate.

Brian Bossick:

That's a great way to set the tone and also to focus on that.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah. So, if you have something you want to celebrate about yourself or others, something just fun, you know, it doesn't even have to be work related, but yeah. Find those people that you can kind of celebrate with. Right. And there really is no right or wrong way to decide what to celebrate. But definitely incorporating smaller scale celebrations more often can help you recognize the contributions that you're making within your role and remind you of why you're deserving of it.

Brian Bossick:

That's great. It, it takes you back to that idea that it's about the journey. Right. It's going to be those steps of the journey. Excellent. Well, our next one is practice self-compassion. Imposter syndrome is fueled by negative self-talk. So practicing ways to be kinder to yourself can help to navigate those feelings of inadequacy. It's a learned skill and it really can take some time to kind of learn to focus on treating yourself with kindness, and respect and, and just having grace and patience as you're learning and figuring things out. I know on the Counseling Center website we have a, essentially like a workshop focused on self-compassion. So if you want to learn more about it and ways to generate it, including some tips, check it out. It's right on our outreach page. You can go to Counseling Center, click on outreach and you'll see workshops. It's great. And it's, it really takes you through step by step if you find that you're, you're not great at like being kind to yourself.Then take a look at it. It's a good way to get started.

Megan Riksen:

And you can just kind of do that on your own from home?

Brian Bossick:

You can totally do that on your own. Yes.

Megan Riksen:

That's a great tool.

Brian Bossick:

Yeah, it really is.

Megan Riksen:

Awesome. Cool. Yeah. Okay, then our final strategy is, is maybe you want to seek longer term professional support. The thought processes that fuel imposter syndrome and feelings of self-doubt and inadequacy can feel overwhelming and sometimes really hard to overcome. So if you've tried a lot of the things we've recommended, if you've tried changing your mindset but still struggle with feeling like an imposter, it might be helpful to seek out therapy or just any sort of longer term professional guidance from a mental health professional who can really, you know, provide some of those additional strategies tailored to you in your exact situation for trying to overcome some of this.

Brian Bossick:

Yeah. If you find that it's getting harder and harder to fight it back, like talking to somebody about maybe where's that coming from? Kind of hit it from the source Yep. Can be a great way to work with that.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah. And maybe something that you just kind of do for a while. Like, it doesn't necessarily have to have an end point.

Brian Bossick:

No. That that's, that's exactly it. And yeah. If you find they're working way too hard to kind of keep feeling good, then maybe you're working too hard, and finding some help is a good thing.

Megan Riksen:

That's a good point. Awesome. Okay, well hopefully we ended on an uplifting note and I think yeah, lots of those strategies, hopefully you will find helpful as you're listening. So anything else, Brian, you feel like we -

Brian Bossick:

I would just say yeah, if you identify with this, if you have questions, come see us. We'd be glad to talk to you and, and if it's sharing experiences, help you figure out what's going on a little bit. And if it's helping you get connected somewhere else, we can do that too.

Megan Riksen:

Right. So yes, through the Career Center, definitely through the University Counseling Center, there are resources just right here on campus. And people who want to listen to you and help you. Awesome. All right, well thank you so much to everyone for listening, and we hope you tune in to a future episode soon.