Megan Riksen:

Hello and welcome to the Work Like a Laker podcast. I'm Megan Riksen and today I'm joined by Brian Bossick.

Brian Bossick:

Hi, Megan.

Megan Riksen:

Hi, Brian. How are you today? I'm pretty good. How about you?

Megan Riksen:

I'm doing good. Good. So today's episode is on failure, which we know is typically a scary topic. Nobody likes to fail.

Brian Bossick:

No, and we don't often talk about it either, right?

Megan Riksen:

We don't. Yeah. And I think it's also something that's really hard to admit to. That's a great point. And that's why we don't talk about it, because we don't wanna admit that something went wrong. That, that we weren't so great at something that's right. That something didn't go our way. So, you know, we might be embarrassed or view it as a sign of weakness potentially, but it's just the reality of life. We're all gonna fail. Failure is usually a part of any challenge we're facing or any sort of journey we're on.

Brian Bossick:

Absolutely. And I think when it comes to figuring out your career and career planning, failure can be scary, right? If you've, if you failed a class, if you didn't get a project in on time, you didn't get an internship, you didn't get a job. I think the idea of failure on the career planning process can feel awful,

Megan Riksen:

Feels like the stakes are high.

Brian Bossick:

Right? It does.

Megan Riksen:

Feels like, yes. Oh my gosh, these are the building blocks for my future career. How I'm going to make money and support myself. And now I failed this class. Will I ever get a job?

Brian Bossick:

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yes. And that happens what first of semester. And then all of a sudden you're like, I'm done. Yeah.

Brian Bossick:

So we wanted to shed some light on the topic of failure today, because I think with failure and with, with the kind of the fear of failure and also the idea of risk with every risk, there's a chance for reward and there's a chance to learn. So I think when we think about the career process, failure is actually a natural part of that. And we wanted to use today's guest and some examples to shed some light on how failure and things not going the way you think they should, can actually help you in your process.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah, absolutely. And, and a tip. We read in, in a book that was based on design thinking, introduced this concept of the failing fast as a way to kind of test the waters, to test things out, to maybe make failure, not as taboo. Maybe that's through something as simple as an informational interview where you're interviewing someone, you have, you really don't know if you're gonna like that particular career that they're in or the particular company they work for, but that's a pretty low stakes proposition to go in and just have a conversation with someone and, and interview them. So if you hate it yeah. Okay. That maybe that's technically a failure, but you get to cross it off your list. Exactly. And you do it pretty quickly.

Brian Bossick:

It got me thinking too, my first year of college, I was pre-med psychology and I remember sitting in a chemistry class thinking, all right, this should be fine. It was fine in high school. And it just kicked my butt and a good buddy of mine was a, ended up being a chem major. And he's like, well it's just like cooking and baking. I'm like, this is not like cooking and baking.

Megan Riksen:

This is not that.

Brian Bossick:

But it was that, that process of failure and that process of really having to work extremely hard just to do average that said that maybe this wasn't the way I think this wasn't something I'm that interested in and it kind of helped me to pivot and really start to move in the direction I am today. So I think failing fast. Yeah. That's a great example.

Megan Riksen:

Try it out. Right. Take that risk. Absolutely. We actually did do a, a podcast on taking risks back in season two. So that would be a good one to refer to as well. Because these things are they're failure, risk they're, they're pretty interconnected.

Brian Bossick:

They really are. You know, it's interesting when I talk to students sometimes about setting up a schedule and thinking about like what they're interested in the idea of like, Hey, does this class sound interesting? Maybe it's not in your major yet, but take it. And it could go really well. Or you could really not like it, but it's failing fast. Right? If you don't that's okay. Cross it off the list and now you know which direction you don't want to go. Right?

Megan Riksen:

Absolutely. So here in the Career Center, we really see the value of storytelling. We talk about it all the time in many contexts of career, if that's through your written resume or cover letter or the stories you might be telling in a networking situation or in interview there, there really is value to that. And I think especially with failure, hearing other stories of a, how they failed and then what the fallout was and hopefully what the positives were following that fallout, I think can be, you know, pretty helpful to anyone really. But especially to students who are listening, who might be feeling like, ah, all of these things are, are happening and, and what am I supposed to be doing here?

Brian Bossick:

And you're trying to figure out what do I make of this? Yes. Right. Where do I go next? Yes.

Megan Riksen:

So today we have a guest. It is Troy Farley. Who's the Director of the Career Center. We thought he'd be perfect to bring on. He actually was our very first guest Season one Episode one. "How To tell your story" of the Work Like a Laker podcast. So now we're gonna bring him back and I actually had the chance to interview him before this. And so you're gonna get to hear a few of his stories of failure and how it really got him to where he is today. So here's Troy.

Megan Riksen:

All right. So here we are with Troy Farley, the Director of the Career Center. Hi Troy.

Troy Farley:

Well, Good morning. Hi Megan. Hi. Thanks for having me back.

Megan Riksen:

It's good to have you back. You were our very first guest, so it's good to have you now in season four and last time you were telling us a lot about your journey and how you got to grand valley, what the college experience was like for you. So we thought it would be fun on this episode where we're talking about failure to maybe get to hear a few more of your stories about failure. So does anything come to mind kind when I say that word failure does like a story pop in your head right away?

Troy Farley:

Well, so, so when, when, when you mentioned the word failure, obviously a lots of things pop into my mind, but, but I'll probably take this in a direction and by the way, I so appreciate your podcast that I don't get the questions. That's right.

Troy Farley:

I think it really gives me that.

Megan Riksen:

We kept you in the dark here.

Troy Farley:

I like that. But I think the first thing I'll say about failure is this. I remember in college. So, so when I was in high school, I was on voc ed track. I was not college prep. My dad was a minor up in the up. So if your dad was a labor worker, you went to the vocational educaition track. When I came to college, it was the first time where I had these letter grades. And what did F mean you failed? Yep. It was a bad thing. Don't do it again. Repeat the class you failed to see if you could get a better grade. So I think I learned that failure was really a bad thing. And then what happened is, is I get outta college where I graduated and I get into the, the world of work and failure has a total opposite meaning to a lot of people.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah. Say more about that.

Troy Farley:

Failure means it's the key to learning to the road to success. You know, I'm always really interested. I listen to a lot of TED talks. Yeah. And have been a part of a lot of our own tables where they bring in senior leadership to have conversations about how did you get to where you are today? And you would think the common denominator based on what we know in higher education would be your degree, your GPA.

Megan Riksen:

Sure. Kind of all these metrics we use in higher ed.

Troy Farley:

Metrics of success. Yep. But when you hear the stories of success, the foundation seems to be learning from their failures. Right? Most CEOs have been fired from a job

Megan Riksen:

From something else

Troy Farley:

Prior to becoming a CEO. And again, they didn't take that class again. They learn from the mistake and did it different the second time around.

Megan Riksen:

I think that's pretty key. So can you think back to a failure maybe it's career-related and somehow maybe not though. I think we can learn from our failures that are both related to a job or not. But maybe how it influenced a part of your life in some way and like what you did with that, what you made of it.

Troy Farley:

Sure. you know, since, since this is a higher ed setting, I'll talk about a failure in higher education that I had. Great. You know, I, I was hired out of the corporate sector to work with the business school and what was really interesting when I started here, I was advising students and I put together a lot of employer events. And the one thing I kept hearing from Walgreens, from Kohl's department stores, from Meijer, was students weren't applying for the positions they had that were open. And, and I couldn't believe it because my background prior to higher education was doing marketing programs for large corporate retailers. Okay. And so I said to them, I can fix this. We're gonna create an event called Careers in Retail. Yeah. And I'm gonna bring in because of my connections from senior leadership sure. From Meijer, from Kohl's department store, which was out of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, I actually flew was somebody in for the event, vice president.

Troy Farley:

Yep. I had somebody drive it from Ohio from another company and then we had Walgreens. Yeah. And I decided that I needed a really big venue because this was gonna be a really big, good event.

Megan Riksen:

It's gonna be a massive event.

Troy Farley:

So absolutely. So I went and took over the Loosemore Auditorium. Yep. And I think a seats close to people and I put together the agenda and I advertised the heck out of it. Careers in Retail. Yeah. Day of the event, two students. Oh my gosh. Showed up. Yeah. I had somebody flying from Milwaukee and all of a sudden two students are in Loosemore Auditoriam. I had this stage set up. I'm trying to moderate or thinking I'm gonna moderate. And literally I was sweating.

Megan Riksen:

I would've been feeling the same way. Yes. That's not a good feeling.

Troy Farley:

I felt really bad because all the people on the panel were what I'd call colleagues or friends for my position I used to have. And I was on a college setting where what's failure mean again, you did something wrong. Yeah. And I was terrified because I was adjunct. Yep. I wasn't full time. Yep. And I was so fearful. My boss would find out, and this would not look good if I wanted to pursue a career in education. Yes. So, so the two students that should I up though, you know, they're sitting in Loosemore Auditorium in the back row. So you have about 30 rows of seats between them and the panel. Perfect. And so I made the decision. I said, listen, rather than have a panel, let's go over to the commons. Yes. Let's all get a cup of coffee and let's sit around a table and have a conversation.

Troy Farley:

It actually turned out to be, I'm not gonna say it was a great event. I would be lying to you. But the two students both ended up with internships out of it, which is pretty cool. But what I learned from it is this. And so I had to, I did apologize. I did feel bad. Were they upset at what I tried to do? Probably not. Right. But I was a little bit upset that, when I started to reevaluate what just happened here. Yeah. I never talked to students. I never asked a question to my boss or my supervisor at the time. Who's now the provost or interim provost at Grand Valley. Yeah. why don't students want a career in retail?

Megan Riksen:

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Troy Farley:

And when I started to ask about, why did they want a career in retail? Most of 'em worked retail. And when they saw Careers in Retail, they saw cashier.

Megan Riksen:

I'm already doing that. Yep.

Troy Farley:

Stocking at night. Right. Right.

Megan Riksen:

I checked people out on my own all day long. I don't need this. Yes.

Troy Farley:

Yeah. And when I was looking at careers in retail, I was looking at buyer positions, purchasing positions, supply chain positions. Yeah. Fashion positions, marketing. So what I learned is talk to the students to find that when somebody says we've tried things and they don't work, talk to the students and find out why, because what you might find out, it's the language that was used. So I would say that's a pretty big failure as an adjunct at trying to earn a spot on the Career Center team at the time.

Megan Riksen:

Sure. But here you are. So something must have came from that. Do you feel like you then took what you learned from that to like everything else that you started doing?

Troy Farley:

Absolutely. You know, what I started to do is before I would create an event, talk to students to find out what are the needs and how to position those needs. Yep. You know, we had a Careers in Banking event and you know, when you think of banking, most students think of a teller. Well, learning from my retail experience, careers in banking meant credit analyst, commercial lending, residential lending, you know, banking perks, credit cards. Yeah. And so I advertised it as careers in banking with bullet points on all the career paths.

Megan Riksen:

Here's what we mean. Yes.

Troy Farley:

But had, I probably done that for the Careers in Retail. Yeah. It would've been a different turnout. Absolutely. But I learned from it.

Megan Riksen:

Absolutely. That's great. So yeah, that's a good story. And I think we've in higher ed, we've all had those moments where you think students are gonna be so interested in something. And then yeah. Something happens that they're, they're not getting the message you're hoping to send out. Yeah. That's great. So, I mean, I've known you for a long time. We've worked together for over a decade. You've been really open since I've known you just like sharing about your life and your successes, failures, whatever those may be. Why do you think it is important to just, I guess to you, why would it be important to be open in and talk about your failures?

Troy Farley:

Well, that's a really good question. It's something that most people aren't comfortable talking about. Yeah. Especially, I'm gonna go back to this higher education setting. But when I look at the students, we are preparing for the world to work. You know, one of the things they're gonna have to learn how to do is fail. It's almost expected. When I, I started working with the company years ago called Mill Steel and we put together a pretty robust internship program together. I remember talking to Tom Stanfield at the time was a people development specialist. And I said, Tom, what do our students do really good at? And he said, following directions.

Megan Riksen:

Okay.

Troy Farley:

I said, what do they need to improve upon? And he said, I'm really not sure. Well, Andrew Sam was in the meeting and he was at the time the president of Mill Steel. And he said, try, I'm gonna tell you something, that's gonna be really loud. And I hope you hear me teach your students to fail.

Megan Riksen:

Okay.

Troy Farley:

Are paranoid to make a mistake.

Megan Riksen:

Yes.

Troy Farley:

Yes. And he says, we'll never put 'em in a position where they make a mistake that costs us too much business. Yes. But they're gonna learn from it.

Megan Riksen:

Absolutely. And kind of that we were talking earlier in the podcast about kind of that fail fast. Yeah. Concept, like do it, try something, make the mistakes, and then you're gonna benefit from that long term.

Troy Farley:

Well, and as you know, a lot of companies have different interviewing techniques. Yes. Some are very standard STAR method, right. Situation, tasks, et cetera. But some are gonna ask questions are gonna make you really uncomfortable by design. And when I work for a company called Daymon Worldwide, or at the time it was called Daymon and Associates, one of the questions we asked every candidate, no matter if it was entry level or senior, tell me a time you failed.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah.

Troy Farley:

We're not necessarily looking at the failure. Yeah. It's what did you do? How did you learn from that to return?

Megan Riksen:

Absolutely.

Troy Farley:

I'll tell you, I'll tell you one interesting story. Can I keep talking?

Megan Riksen:

Of course.

Troy Farley:

Perfect. Thank you. So, so one thing that's really interesting is when I first started advising students, I really didn't know what I was doing. You know, I kind of learned through osmosis. Yeah.

Megan Riksen:

Cause you came from a different world. You weren't totally trained as a career advisor right away.

Troy Farley:

Student just started showing up. Yep. And I had a student who is right now. He's, he's a he's I probably won't give his name. I wish I could, but probably was. Yeah. But he's now a senior vice president. And he came to Grand Valley. He transferred into Grand Valley and he was looking to get a CPA position in, in a large accounting firm. But his GPA was under a 3.0 And he says, every single position I'm applying for is 3.2 or higher. Sure. How do I overcome this barrier? Yeah.

Megan Riksen:

And that's a common question.

Troy Farley:

I started asking him questions and I finally said, where did it go wrong for you? You know, show me your transcript so we can really diagnose what took, what happened. Well, come to find out, he played football his freshman year and football was why he went to school. It wasn't to learn.

Megan Riksen:

Okay.

Troy Farley:

And he ended up with a 0.8 GPA.

Megan Riksen:

Yep.

Troy Farley:

30 credit hours.

Megan Riksen:

Wow.

Troy Farley:

Now he's a junior trying to get an internship.

Megan Riksen:

Oh, that's hard to overcome.

Troy Farley:

Absolutely. So we looked at his resume and we started to look at his classes. And what I figured out was he's done extremely well in every business course at Grand Valley. In fact, his accounting classes or through the roof, his econ classes, he was an econ major too, was through the roof. So I said to him, I said, listen, let's do some, do something on your resume to show the failure. Because if you don't show it, they're gonna ask about it. Or they're not gonna ask at all because of, they can't see your GPA.

Megan Riksen:

You won't get the chance.

Troy Farley:

Yeah. So we, we, we put an Excel graph or chart on his resume. To show his freshman year. Yeah. Who was a 0.08. Yeah. But then they got to see a 3.2. Yep. And a 3.6, we got to show what he'd in sense then. And I called a, a, I called in a, a friend who worked at a CPA firm and said, please give him a chance to the interview. I think he's got a great story to tell they hired him on the spot.

Megan Riksen:

Wow.

Troy Farley:

Because he had a story, he did fail, he owed up to it And he he had it out there. Yep.

Megan Riksen:

Yep. So I think that's pretty critical for our students, for all our listeners, just to realize it doesn't have to be a, a make or break situation when something happens. Right. It's not gonna kill ya. You're gonna be okay. But what are you gonna, what are you gonna do from there? How are you, how are you going to overcome this and share that story? Because as you said, like in that example, the story really was the important piece of it. Right? Like explaining what happened. Yeah. You could have very easily just said yeah, my GPA is not great. Yep. But tell the story.

Troy Farley:

And, and sometimes Megan, a failure might not be a failure in your eyes, but might be seen so in the eyes of others, I'll give you one more example. I was working for Archway marketing up in Rogers, Minnesota. And I had a, I had a national account target stores and the CEO of the company wanted to go into the Target store meeting with me because it was a big national account. So I brought 'em with me and we were really good. The company I worked for at many parts of marketing, but there's some things we weren't as good at. And we knew it. Well, this was an RFP for a large account, request for proposal. And in the meeting, they asked me about our bid and our prices and I was sharing with them where we're gonna be at. And they said, why should we give you this business? And I am sitting next to the CEO, which is partly why I got terminated, which we called it a mutual separation. I said, I'm not so sure we're the best company for this side of the business. You know, one of our competitors is much better suited for the delivery of what you're looking for. Our expertise is this.

Troy Farley:

And the company thanked me profusely profusely. For being that honest. Yeah. Right. Decided to go with the other company. In the elevator, the ride down seven stories in the target corporate office, it was a long ride with your CEO down to the floor. When he basically told you, you just made the biggest mistake in your career.

Megan Riksen:

Hmm.

Troy Farley:

So six weeks later I get a phone call from that same account who said, hey, we have a piece of business. We want to give you, it's not a request for proposal. It's because of how honest you are with telling us you're shortcomings or something. Another company could do better. Yeah. So I failed yep. In the eyes of the CEO, but I succeeded in the eyes of the company

Megan Riksen:

And ultimately something good...

Troy Farley:

Something could happen

Megan Riksen:

Came from it. Cause there was some trust built there. Absolutely.

Troy Farley:

Honesty. Yeah. And and also what happened is, is that that failure caused some tension with me and the CEO, which we decided to mutually part ways. Yep. And I've been at grand valley ever since. Well,

Megan Riksen:

There you go. Great. Well, I think that's an awesome spot to end for today. Thank you so much for sharing your stories. We know you're always good for a story.

Troy Farley:

Thanks for having me.

Megan Riksen:

Thanks so much, Troy.

Brian Bossick:

I am so glad I had a chance to listen to that. I think Troy does such a great job of illustrating we what he was thinking, what he was trying and then stepping back and talking about where do I go from here? So yeah, I think through the power of story, you get amazing examples.

Megan Riksen:

Absolutely. And yeah, Troy's a great storyteller and always good to listen to. It was a fun interview to do for sure.

Brian Bossick:

And I hope for all of you, as you think about this, that you're able to kind of from some of those lessons and, and feel a little bit better about taking some risks, trying something out and seeing what can happen from that. Yep.

Megan Riksen:

Absolutely. Great. Well, thank you so much to everyone for listening and we hope you tune in to a future episode soon.