Megan Riksen:

Hello and welcome to the Work Like a Laker podcast. I'm Megan Riksen and today my co-host is Grace Pushman. Hi, Grace.

Grace Pushman:

Hi Megan.

Megan Riksen:

How are you today?

Grace Pushman:

I'm doing great.

Megan Riksen:

Great. So we've got a topic that we're tackling today. Well, I'll kind of describe it as we're talking about dream jobs, but what I'm really talking about is kind of the anti dream job, because we're talking about what your first job out of undergrad might look like and how, you know, does it need to be your dream job? Does it need to check every single box of all the things you've ever imagined your career would look like? So I guess I'll throw that over to you. Do you, do you think that that's a realistic expectation?

Grace Pushman:

<laugh> I think it's a common expectation, but I'm not sure it's very realistic. I think, you know, one thing we always try to tell our students is your first job probably won't be your job you have forever. So I think that's a lot of pressure that people put on themselves thinking, okay, I need to find a job that I'm gonna wanna do for 30 or 40 years. And it's, that's not very realistic. And honestly, it's not very common. The average worker actually stays at each job for an average of 4.4 years now, but for the younger generation, 91% expect to stay in a job for less than three years. So you can see there's a lot of movement. And actually there is some benefit to at movement because often, you know, I think back in the day, there were things like pensions and other incentives to keep employees in a position for a long time. And if you're not sure what a pension is, it's basically an incentive for retirement where you get a really great retirement.

Megan Riksen:

Like 401k, but your employer pays all of it. You don't have to contribute anything.

Grace Pushman:

Yeah a 401k, but better way better. Unfortunately, they kind of are a little bit extinct now are sure almost extinct. And so that used to be a great incentive for people to stay in a job for a long time. And honestly, we don't really have a lot of those incentives anymore. And instead, there are some reasons that you might wanna switch. Like often you can negotiate higher pay. If you switched into a new role or a new position, um, you might be able to leverage the experiences you've had in the, in your first job to get something that you want. And so we're actually gonna talk a little bit about that, Megan, if you wanna

Megan Riksen:

Add to that. Yeah. I think that leveraging is pretty key. So you, you know, you end up somewhere in your first position. It's not exactly what you want. It's not where you wanna stay forever, but you have to look at it as an up opportunity to build skills, to build your network. You are going to be meeting people. You are going to be learning new things. And I mean, who knows what the percentage is, but so much of the work we do now is transferable to other areas. You're just thinking about, you know, technology, that's pretty much a given in most positions now. So at least you're gonna have that background of I've worked in a professional position. I have some skills that I can then translate to that next role, whatever that may be. Maybe it's a lateral step, completely different. Maybe it is a promotion or a move to a different company.

Megan Riksen:

Something like that. That gets you closer maybe to that dream job. But yeah, absolutely. That building your resume, viewing it as an opportunity instead of, oh, I'm stuck in something that I don't wanna do forever, I think is really important. Yes, I had this right out of undergrad. I thought I was going to be a teacher and we're gonna talk a lot about teaching today, but, um, decided I didn't want to do that. So was pretty clueless went and just got a full-time job as a bank teller at a bank in my hometown, moved back home. And it was just for a year. And I certainly found out I didn't wanna work in banking forever, but you know, it was a full-time job with benefits. I was working with people every day. I gained a lot of skills and I had some sense of security, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> in my, in my role, which then allowed me to explore a little bit decided I wanted to go to grad school, decided education was in my future. Maybe not teaching. And now here I am in higher ed. So, um, I think that year was still really, really beneficial to me, even though on paper, it looks kind of like an outlier based on the rest of what I ended up doing.

Grace Pushman:

Yeah. And I think a lot of us have those experiences. In fact, I don't really know too many people who are at least our age or younger who are, have had yes. Um, their first job was their job they stuck with. And so totally, I know for me, my first teaching job, I took one I'm from Michigan mm-hmm <affirmative> and I took my first teaching job out in Arizona. And I lo you know, I was looking forward to the opportunity to move somewhere new, but I knew that I wanted to eventually be in Michigan because my family is here. So it wasn't necessarily ideal. But I used that time. I was in Arizona. I was gonna only say one year I stayed for three because I ended up loving it. And while I was there, I was able to do a lot of leadership roles.

Grace Pushman:

I was on a lot of committees and I was able to really build my resume. So then by the time I, I applied for teaching jobs in Michigan, I got almost every single job I applied for. So it was just, you know, it really is sometimes is using that as an opportunity to build those skills. And now, as some of you, as all of you should know, I am no longer a teacher. And so for me, I had a career pivot and a lot of you will have something similar where maybe your first job, you might think it's your dream job actually. And you might get that job and be super excited.

Megan Riksen:

That's a good point.

Grace Pushman:

And then guess what you hate it, or it's just not a good fit, or you can't see yourself doing it for as long as you thought you could. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and that's kinda what happened to me. You know, I didn't hate teaching, but I just thought, I don't know that I can see myself doing this for my full career. And so that's where I made the pivot into higher education. And Megan did the same thing from banking into her career now. So that is also something that might happen to you and it is totally okay. And I still was able to use a lot of my skills from teaching in the position I have now. So it was definitely to me, not a waste of time and a great, uh, learning experience

Megan Riksen:

Of course. Right. So a lot of what we've been talking about is, you know, it doesn't have to be perfect. Use this time, build your skills. You can make those pivots. You can also, you know, use that first job as a stepping stone, as we said. So I think that's a pretty good time to bring in our guest for today. So Nick Claus is joining us and Nick, how are you doing today? Thanks for being here.

Nick Claus:

I'm doing well. Thank you very much.

Megan Riksen:

Right. So why don't you just kick us off with a short intro, kind of where you work, what you do, all that good stuff.

Nick Claus:

Um, I work for Grand Rapids Public Schools, and the school that I work for currently is Dickinson Academy Cultural Center. And I am a seventh grade teacher there and I actually am getting an endorsement for what's called ESL, which is English is a second language. And that has been very interesting because that's a complete departure at what I had planned on for going to school. Um, but it's something that I have definitely embraced now and is a lot of fun.

Megan Riksen:

Awesome.

Grace Pushman:

And I'm very excited to have Nick here today. <affirmative> because we actually went to school together. So we did <laugh>. We both had sort of, um, not a super linear path to teaching because we both graduated with an undergraduate degree. What was your, again?

Nick Claus:

My undergraduate degree was interdisciplinary studies.

Grace Pushman:

Okay. And mine was in psychology and, and I don't know about you Nick, but I graduated and wasn't quite sure what I wanted to do. And then I decided on teaching after I'd already graduated.

Nick Claus:

Yep. Same. Same with me actually.

Grace Pushman:

Okay. So we both joined the Graduate Teacher Certification program at Grand Valley and that's how we met. Um, so Nick, I'm curious how, what kind of went through your thought process when deciding to go back to school for that?

Nick Claus:

Um, for me, it was kind of a joint effort between my wife and I, I had graduated with my undergrad in 2009, which for anyone that knows history out there, that was the beginning of the recession. And there was not a whole lot of job, um, prospects when I graduated and my wife and I found ourselves actually working at the Grand Rapids Public Museum. And she always saw me kind of taking the opportunity when possible to teach people about certain artifacts or talk about different exhibits that were in the, in the, um, in the museum. And she just saw how happy it made me. So is like, well, I've been doing a little research and there's a degree that you can get, um, which is in teaching, it's the graduate teacher certification. Um, and the funny thing is I, up to that point, I had actually tried everything to not be a teacher.

Megan Riksen:

<laugh> no way the

Nick Claus:

Reason why is because my entire family is all teachers. They're, we're all educators,

Grace Pushman:

No escaping it. No,

Nick Claus:

I both. My parents were in education. Um, I have aunts, uncles, and cousins in education, and I wanted to try and do something different, but realized after that it was my calling was to go into education. So that's incredible. Now I find myself here after nine years of teaching in public school.

Megan Riksen:

Amazing.

Grace Pushman:

So I, I will ask this because I know, like you said, when we both graduated undergrad, it was a tough time because of the recession mm-hmm <affirmative>, but then when we both graduated from the GTC program, this not to age us, but this was in 2013. Yep. And it was a tough time for teachers in Michigan. There weren't a lot of positions. So can you tell me a little bit about that first job that you got when you graduated?

Nick Claus:

Yeah, so, um, I remember actually before graduating that we just started putting out application after application. I know that we had a, a very supportive professor, um, professor Dr. Cleveland, Rosemary, Cleveland, and we were looking everywhere and I came upon, I came across a job that was in Dalton Kellogg, which is an hour south of where we're living mm-hmm <affirmative> and my wife and I thought about more like, you know what, it's, it's at least a foot in the door. It's something to start me off with. It wasn't a full-time teaching position. And it wasn't even in a subject that I was, I, I don't wanna say not trained in, but just not as familiar with teaching. And that was computer science mm-hmm <affirmative>. And that ended up being my foot in the door. Um, the district was at least impressed enough to offer me a full-time position my second year. And from there, it just kind of kept blossoming, blossoming into the next opportunity to where by the time I had left the position there at that district, I had become, um, a full-time social studies teacher. I was, um, the social studies curriculum director for that district. And it was definitely something that helped me catapult into my career now at G R P S.

Grace Pushman:

That sounds great.

Megan Riksen:

That does sound great. So I wanna just pop back to something you said you started part-time. Yes. So what did that look like? You know, not the nitty gritty of like, how did you make that work, but were there other positions, did you just figure it out on a part-time salary? What did that look like?

Nick Claus:

So what we did, um, originally I had actually applied for a fourth grade teaching position, which would've been a full-time position. Okay. And that actually ended up going to someone that their, their mother had just retired it in, basically they took their mother's position <laugh> <laugh>. Um, but because the district was, I guess, impressed enough during my interview that they had offered the part-time position and it was a struggle for a while. I still held onto my job at the Grand Rapids Public Museum. Um, it would be numerous times throughout the year to where I would go possibly a month without a day off going back and forth between the two jobs. So yes, it was, it was definitely a struggle at the beginning, but it was worth it in the end. Right.

Megan Riksen:

I think that's a really important thing to note is you weren't even doing just one job. You were putting together a couple of jobs to make it, to make it work. Do you think, um, I guess talk a little bit about maybe how your experience at the grand rapids public museum was able to help kind of those translatable skills, how that helped transition to teaching, or was that something you would bring up in an interview for a teaching position? Things like that?

Nick Claus:

I would bring it up. Um, one of the positions that I held there was I was actually the, uh, one of the managers for the customer service. And a lot of that gave me the people skills and being able to talk to large groups fairly comfortably. And I think that I definitely benefited from having that position just because it always put me around kind of educational materials and ideas, people with the same mindsets, so definitely would not trade that for anything.

Megan Riksen:

Awesome.

Grace Pushman:

And I'm curious with all of the different, uh, positions you've had, is there anything you've learned about yourself as far as what you value in a workplace setting?

Nick Claus:

Well, now I definitely think that making sure that you have a really good staff atmosphere, that's something that's extremely important. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, I mean, realistically I could get by with teaching most subjects, even if I'm not that familiar with the subject, as long as I know that I have, uh, a staff coworkers that kind of have my back at mm-hmm <affirmative>. So when the, when you have higher morale with your staff, it is a lot easier to do your job because you don't feel like you're just doing it kind of in a bubble. Yep. So that's something that's very important for me is to make sure that I understand that I have a team around me that other people are there and that I, I need to understand not to just do things on my own, really, really making sure, um, especially now that I've kind of been through some things with teaching mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, you know, to ask for help learning kind of who to go to for help and just really kind of valuing that. And most everything else will kind of fall into place as long as those things are attended to.

Grace Pushman:

Yeah, I would agree that that's super important. And I think Megan, you would probably agree that that's one of the best parts about our job, that it is the team that we work with.

Megan Riksen:

It really is. You can have a bad day, like something in the work you're doing could have gone really poorly, but if you have a shoulder to go cry on not necessarily cry, but vent on, right. It makes all the difference to kind of just turn your, your whole day around and have you not leave super sad. Yeah.

Grace Pushman:

And I think in, in every job that's important because I don't necessarily think that people would think of that with teaching because you are alone for a big chunk of the day, or like, well, you're with students, but professionally you're alone. Um, but it is a big factor in teaching I think, is to have a team that,

Nick Claus:

Oh yeah. I mean, because you're, even though you are alone for most of the day, um, you still have all of the different night events that you might have to go to. You have staff meetings, a lot of the procedures and those types of things that schools will implement. The teachers kind of have to be on board with in order for them to work. So if you, if you have a lot of colleagues that don't necessarily wanna work together, you're not gonna get those benefits. Um, and I do have to mention that I'm very lucky that my wife works with me as well, so, oh, that's

Megan Riksen:

Exciting. That's fun.

Nick Claus:

She works in the same building. Um, and actually grace is very correct to where we don't see each other most of the day mm-hmm <affirmative> because we're in class with students, but mm-hmm, <affirmative> having that, knowing you have that support outside of the classroom is something that's, I think absolutely critical as being an educator in today's world.

Grace Pushman:

Yeah. I would agree with that.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah. Can you talk a little bit, or do you have any advice on how networking or relationship building with people and kind of all the jobs you've had along the way have helped you to then get to the next position or get to where you are now?

Nick Claus:

Um, yeah. And the first thing that I always tell people is get to know the people in the office and get to know your custodians. Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Nick Claus:

Love that. Um, because realistically they, they are the gatekeepers to a lot of things within the school. Um, the men and women that work in the offices, they have the direct ear of the principal. Um, they're the ones that can, um, get you calls very quickly to other people in the district if need be. So making, making those people happy and, and realizing that you are no better or worse than anyone else is a very big thing. And one of the things that I would suggest for new hire is that you will probably go through it a year or two to where you're saying yes to every committee. Yes mm-hmm <affirmative> um, which maybe in your first or second year, that would be fine, but do learn to balance it out. Um, good advice, you know, learn it's maybe counterintuitive, but learn to say know, tactfully. So that way you're not overextending yourself, but at the same time, you're not burning bridges at the same time.

Megan Riksen:

Yeah.

Grace Pushman:

That's a very important piece of advice that we talk about a lot in the Career Center as well.

Grace Pushman:

Sure. Um, and then finally, Nick, we are curious, do you have any advice for students who might be looking first job and just aren't really having a lot of luck finding something that they would consider a dream job?

Nick Claus:

I think that people that get their dream job straight out of college are the outliers they're, they're the exceptions mm-hmm <affirmative> um, so many people that I've met throughout my career and people that have, have been in other careers. They're not even close to some of their degrees that they even went to school for. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, so, you know, getting that foot in the door, I think is the biggest piece of advice is as long as you can make it sustainable or maintain it, make sure that you, if you have an opportunity, take it, you know, it's, it might not be something that you've dreamed of, but a it's it's a foot in the door and B it's gonna teach you so many things that you didn't think you needed to know. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, that will end up helping you further on down the, down the line and career.

Grace Pushman:

Yeah. That's good advice. And I think Megan, I could be wrong, but I started as adjunct in this office, which basically means you have, you know, just a few months in your contract.

Megan Riksen:

Temporary.

Grace Pushman:

Temporary. Yeah. Um, is that how you started as well? It is. Okay. That's what I thought it is.

Megan Riksen:

It's not ideal cause you feel like, well, I'm pouring my heart and soul into this position and I might be gone in a few months.

Grace Pushman:

Yep.

Megan Riksen:

And then you have to apply for your own job, which is also a little fun. Um, but it, it paid off. Yep. For both of us, because guess what? I built relationships and I got to know everybody and I tried to make myself as useful as possible mm-hmm <affirmative> so that I would stand out against the other candidates that I eventually needed to yeah. Kind of be competing with. So yeah, taking those part-time roles, taking those temporary positions, taking something, as you mentioned, Nick, that doesn't necessarily align just like perfectly with the degree or the major that you have, those things are all great. And I, I also just that, that piece, you said the valuing your colleagues, you can find that anywhere mm-hmm <affirmative> that does not have to just be, well, I'm only gonna be happy and working with the people that I like, if it's super related to what I wanna do and to my major and all of that, like you can find community in yes. In a lot of roles. Now I will say, if you get somewhere and you don't like the role itself and the culture, isn't great. There you go. That's a really good sign to move on.

Nick Claus:

It can be a time to switch.

Megan Riksen:

But if some of the things that we've been talking about, if you can be developing skills, if you can be building relationships, if those things can still be happening, you know, that you can at least stick, stick this first job out for a while before you transition onto the next thing. Yeah.

Grace Pushman:

Well, you had a lot of great thoughts and advice. Thank you so much, Nick.

Megan Riksen:

Yes.

Nick Claus:

Thank you.

Megan Riksen:

We really appreciate your time. Thank you. And everyone listening. As, as we always in our episodes, feel free to come into our office, to the Career Center. Um, throughout the year, we will have our CareerLab available where students and alums can can drop in. So if you just wanna have a quick chat about this topic, we would love to do that. So please do not hesitate to come in and thanks so much to everyone for listening. We hope you tune in to a future episode soon.