Megan Riksen (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Work Like a Laker podcast. I'm Megan Riksen and my co-host today is Brian Bossick. Hi, Brian.

Brian Bossick (00:27):

Hi Megan. How are you?

Megan Riksen (00:28):

I'm doing great. Thanks. So we're excited about today's episode. We're going to be addressing some of the questions and concerns that might be specific to students who identify as LGBTQ plus as it relates to career and to help us with our topic. We have a great guest. So Mark, can you introduce yourself?

Mark Saint-Amour (00:50):

Hello? my name is Mark Saint-Amour my mandatory pronouns are they them their. And yeah, I super appreciate the time and I appreciate being here to talk with you all. Thank you so much for having me.

Megan Riksen (01:03):

Great. Thanks Mark. Thanks so much for being here. As you may have noticed, it sounds like Mark is right with us but due to COVID we've asked them to submit and pre-record some of their answers. So let's jump right into question one. Mark, can you provide us with a brief description of your role at GVSU and the different ways that you interact with students?

Mark Saint-Amour (01:24):

Yeah, certainly. So as I've said, my name is Mark Saint-Amour and my mandatory pronouns .re they them there? And I work at the Milton E Ford LGBT resource center within the division of Enrollment Development. Let's see, in my role, I mainly work with our student workers and our LGBTQ plus ally students who drop in and use our resources. I also interact with students as I present our queer and trans 101 trainings and often have the opportunity to put together numerous student committees that support a variety of needs such as our LGBTQIA+ plus community engagement and outreach committee, which is pretty awesome. So these,ustudents that go into local high school gay, straight alliances,uand they help put out a giant conference for LGBTQIA+ plus teens and allies here at GV. I mean, it's, it's great. Uh,obviously a lot of that work has shifted virtually,ubut it's still an awesome time. In addition to this, I've been with the university going on six years now, I believe. Uand I've interacted with students in various ways throughout that history. I started downtown at the Dorothy A. Johnson center for philanthropy,uwhere I worked mainly with our front desk student workers. And I interacted a lot with student workers in the technology majors down there. Ufor a time I was also within the division of inclusion and equity, where through their social justice education department, I worked with students through giving various workshops and presentations on social justice topics. UI even interact with students as my peers. I do take classes here at GV,uactually just got accepted into the criminal justice master's program, which I'm super excited about. UOh, I also served,uas the vice-president of our APSS staff union for a little bit. And in that role,uI helped put together Indulge Day, which is a part of a Student Worker Appreciation Week. Uso yeah, I guess I've I interact with a wide variety of students,uin a, in a number of ways.

Brian Bossick (03:36):

Congratulations, on the Master's degree and pursuing that concept of a lifelong learner. I'm excited to hear more. So let's let's jump to question two.

Megan Riksen (03:45):

Yes, absolutely. Let's get in there. All right. So how often do questions related to career or workplace concerns come up in your work with students?

Mark Saint-Amour (03:56):

You know, honestly, not all that much. I think sometimes there's a misconception that because a student is in college majoring in something that that they have a pretty clear idea of what their career career path is. And I don't know if that's ever been true for any student that I've ever talked to. I mean, life can be hard at that stage, right? Most students, I know, you know, they're busy worrying about juggling their 18 credit hours working. Part-Time hoping that a car doesn't break down you know, whether or not they'll be able to afford their phone bill this month, you know, can they get that age eight page paper done before it's due tomorrow that they haven't started yet? You know I mean, that's truly where I meeting most of my students is, is this intersection of like triaging daily life and helping them to navigate resources to help them in the now it's usually not really until that senior year that I think I start to see students have that sort of, Oh, crap moment when they're sort of the next stage of life starts to become very real.

Mark Saint-Amour (05:12):

And even then it's mostly about talking to students who are sort of, you know, maybe second guessing the majors that they chose. Cause as, as we kind of know, right, there can be a big difference between what one is good at and what one is passionate about. You know, sometimes there can be a pretty big precipice between those two things. And I think other times students, you know, they just, they're not wanting to leave college campus life and their friends. It can feel like a real big, a real big shift. I think in general, students just get terrified that they don't have it all figured out and they think they should. And, you know, as, as we know, the fact of the matter is that all of us, whether we're 20 or 80 are still flying by the seat of our pants. Right.

Megan Riksen (06:05):

Great. Yes. I agree with Mark. We are certainly all flying by the seat of our pants so often. And I think we, we do that because it's, you know, life is a journey. We are constantly exploring and trying to figure out what to do with our lives. So, you know, from a career advisor perspective, I'm constantly working with students who are either figuring out what major they want or figuring out what they want to do with their major. So that exploration piece I think is, is really critical, both on the career side, but also on the personal life side as Mark was mentioning, do you agree, Brian?

Brian Bossick (06:46):

Absolutely. Megan, I think one of the biggest things they mentioned was that you might connect with somebody early on and maybe those questions aren't career related, career exploration related, they're just, they're related to support and navigating college, but that person or people that you form connections with can help you for quite some time down the line. And then, then those other questions might get answered. So I, I just think they really underscored the importance of finding support in people that you can, can lean on for support. Mark, let's hear what you have to say about question three. So what are some of the most common career or workplace questions you are asked?

Mark Saint-Amour (07:24):

Well, you know, like I said previously, I don't often end up having a lot of these conversations. You know, however, what I will say is that when I do, I'm often working with students who, you know, again, identify within the LGBTQ plus community. So when we're talking about career and workplace sort of concerns, it's different, right? Because it can truly be a matter of life and death. And I don't say that flippantly, you know, fears of being fired for being or not being able to dress and present in a holistic and authentic way, you know, having to hide yourself right in a place where you spend 40 to 60 hours a week is horrible. You know, I personally did it for the longest time and it, and it takes a mental toll and the physical one as well. LGBTQ plus folks, you know, we don't get to just casually talk about our relationships or partners or what clubs we went to over the weekend around the water cooler.

Mark Saint-Amour (08:31):

You know, that doesn't happen without a real fear of violence and or termination, you know, and, and that's all to say that, you know, again, if I do find myself talking with students about these things about careers, it's, it's usually not, unfortunately a fun, hopeful conversation. Again, it's, it's usually about, you know, the few safe work environments I know of in West Michigan, or really just trying to help students navigate corporate life in a way that, you know, helps them get a paycheck in order to survive while they are very careful about how and when to disclose certain information. I mean, it's, it's really easy right, just to say, Hey, I'm going to be my true self, no matter what. And if someone doesn't want to hire me, that's their loss. And I think honestly, that's a beautiful thing.

Mark Saint-Amour (09:31):

That's a beautiful thought. I just don't really believe it's a realistic one. The world is, is still a pretty ugly place for folks like us. And sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do to, to keep the lights on and to survive. You know, I'm not trying to paint a real necessarily grim picture. I mean, we've made a lot, a lot of progress in the United States and in our society and in businesses. But again for, for marginalized communities, it's not as simple as like, yeah, go get 'em tiger. You know, there's, there's a lot of fear out there still, and, and that's very real. That's, that's very palpable.

Brian Bossick (10:23):

Thanks Mark. You really bring to life the amount of balance that I think one has to take when they're looking for a workplace that lets you be yourself, but also realizing that there might be some layers of safety that a person needs to keep in mind. And how do you, how do you balance that? And it sounds like it can be a really, it's a big challenge. And I, I think one thing that they mentioned that really stood out is that there may always be a little layer of that, right. Or a layer of that, that one has to consider as they navigate the workplace, that there is just a little bit of caution that is there and, and trying to understand what that is and how do you, how do you navigate that? And I really appreciate the challenge you brought up and how one tries to navigate that.

Megan Riksen (11:07):

Great. Okay. Let's move on to question four, which is, what piece of advice or information do you find that you share the most as it relates to career or the workplace?

Mark Saint-Amour (11:19):

You know I actually kind of want to flip this one if I can. I'm after an ask by businesses you know, who have read the McKinsey report, they stay up to date with business trends, the news, the economy, you know, the businesses that really get it, you know, the ones that know that hiring diverse people from all different identities, backgrounds, walks of life, lived experiences. You know, it's not only the right thing to do, but it's truly the smart business decision. You know, I mean research after research clearly that a diversified workforce is a profitable one. So often I get from, again, the businesses that get it I get this question of how do we recruit these folks, right? How can we recruit more LGBTQ plus individuals, more people of color et cetera. And frankly, I genuinely think this is the wrong question to be asking.

Mark Saint-Amour (12:20):

I do. I think the right question and the place to start is how to retain a diverse staff. You know, it seems backwards, but I think that's truly where businesses need to start. You can recruit from marginalized communities, all you want. But if you haven't shed like toxic environmental microaggressions, you know, traditional colonialist, capitalistic ways to look at work environments, you know, these folks won't stay and that won't be a reflection of them. It'll be a reflection of that business. I mean, quite frankly, if you still have a required dress code, you know, strict start and stop times and specific locations to work, you know, you're, you're using binary language. You have pictures of, you know, old ritual, white men on your walls. You know, your, your benefit package is lacking domestic partner benefits, you know, gender affirming care for trans employees.

Mark Saint-Amour (13:27):

You know, if you only have binary bathrooms you know, if you have bigoted coworkers who you know, who are put up with, because like their numbers are good or whatever other justification, you know, you have like, I've, I've really have heard a lot of this. You know, if, if you have any of these things, quite frankly, you are not ready for a diverse workforce you know, any true radical change. It, it starts within, and it works outward. You know, trust me, if you have a healthy and affirming workplace environment, like you won't need it to fly a giant rainbow pride flag outside of your business, you know, folks are going to know you're there word of mouth about, you know, real substantive positions and actions. It speaks way louder than, than any ally sticker could.

Megan Riksen (14:28):

Great response. Mark. I loved that you flipped the script here and said that, you know, the real work when we're talking about a workplace should be starting from inside of an organization. So I think to all of our students who are listening it has a student it's very smart to do your research on an that you might be considering volunteering for interning for working for following graduation. Whatever that context is. And I think so many of the pieces that Mark mentioned, like domestic partner benefits, dress code, there's so many things that they were mentioning that can kind of go into the culture of a place, what it actually is like to work there, how supported someone is going to feel at that organization. Those are all very, very key components. And there actually is a great tool online that's created and maintained by the human rights campaign. That's called the corporate equality index. This index rates workplaces on LGBTQ equality. So you're able to look up individual organizations and see what their policies are, what their practices are, what their benefit structure might look like. And they actually give a nice rating on those. So you can, you can kind of do a comparison among organizations as well, and hopefully get a pretty true sense of how supportive that organization may be. And Brian, I think you were going to also mention, you know, just the support system. So it's not just you know, an organization, a corporate entity, but it's also the people that you're talking to.

Brian Bossick (16:15):

Absolutely. Megan, I think one of the things that they brought up that really stood out to me was the fact that talk to the people in the know talk to the people that you trust that may also share some of the same identity factors that you do and who know the different companies that are out there and what really is happening on the inside, that there may be kind of an image that's on the outside, but is it as supportive in that experience in that structure when you're there with the other people? So I think networking and talking could really give you a clear idea and really ground your research. So I just thought that was a fantastic piece of advice. I, with that, let's transition to our last question for Mark. And we hit them with a fairly big one here. So for our final question Mark, what questions are considered relation considerations related to your own career journey played the most important role in coming to GVSU for your current job?

Mark Saint-Amour (17:10):

Wow. well, that's a really long and complex story. Okay. So how about I offer this up instead? And keep in mind, this is not my idea. A very wise person told me to do this once and it changed my life truly. Okay, so this is what I want you to do. I want you to go home and make a list, title it, a life worth living, and on that list, write down all the deep, wonderful, intrinsic, passionate areas that you love, all the things that make up who want to be as a person, you know, and what you want your life to be full of. You know, I, I'm not talking about spending five minutes writing down things like I like cake or her, you know, a life full of money. And mansion's you know, I mean, writing down deep, meaningful substantive things that would make you and your life, you know, feel a whole holistic and authentic genuine and true to who you really are at the core, you know, write that list and come back to it over and over again, till it feels right, revisit it every month, every year.

Mark Saint-Amour (18:31):

And then finally, you know, go and get it, go and get it, you know, it's, it's the simplest yet hardest thing of the mall, right. To truly figure out who you are and what you need. It's one of those things that sounds so simple. It almost seems silly. But in practice is literally one of the hardest things a person can do. You know, trust me, life doesn't magically become any easier or, or less messy. You know, awful, horrible, bad stuff will still happen to you. Just like it happens to everyone. You know, but, but now you'll have a guide, you know, you'll have a compass you know, you may still be in the middle of the ocean, right. But at least you'll know what direction to go in. Not now don't get me wrong. I'm not preaching some kind of like, just think positive and pull yourself up by the bootstraps sort of thing.

Mark Saint-Amour (19:32):

You know, trust me, I I'm a and trans person of color. I absolutely know firsthand that institutional systemic oppression is real, you know, the forces of white supremacy, capitalism and good old fashioned, white cisgender heterosexual, forced assimilation. You know, those are still there. And unfortunately alive and well, you know, you know, and sometimes for marginalized community doing this list, it may even make things feel worse. You know, sometimes it's, it's not until, you know, the person that you want to be or the life that you want to live, that you're able to like fully see all the forces that, that aim to prevent that. You know but, but what I'm trying to say, let me bring it back to the positive here is that, you know, this is the one life that we've got and it's worth fighting for.

Mark Saint-Amour (20:32):

So, you know, make that list, figure out who you are and what you need, figure out your life, that's worth living. You know, and don't fight to fit into that world that doesn't accept you. You don't fight to make that world fit to you fight to make a world that celebrates you, you know, cause if we can all do that, right, if we can all fight for a world that celebrates us, our identities, our, our diversity, you know, if we can fight for a world that celebrates all of us that centers love and empathy that, that nurtures everyone, you know, including the planet itself, you know, we're all gonna end up with a life worth living. And that's what I did and I, I would recommend it for you and for anybody.

Brian Bossick (21:27):

Thank you for flipping the script a bit Mark and giving us, like, I think a fantastic tool that we can work with. I know that in us one Oh two one of the things we often talk about is the importance of values and values in one's own career search and the values are actually strongly linked to, and the strongest predictor of career satisfaction. So I was very impressed by the suggestion as a way to help ground oneselves in your career journey and figuring out what is it that is the most important things for you. And I would say too, I just love the fact that don't take this as a quick, quick process, like take some time, right? Think about the things that are going to really stick and help guide you in your path. So thank you. I thought that was a fantastic answer and a great response.

Megan Riksen (22:13):

Didn't you also love, like, write it down the act of physically writing something down or typing it right. That you can refer back to. Yeah. It makes a difference. It really does.

Brian Bossick (22:25):

It definitely does. And so I think having something tangible absolutely. Or else it just goes kind of in your head and probably gets lost. So I think that's a great idea

Speaker 2 (22:34):

For sure. Great. So again, a huge thank you to Mark for their insights and advice and honesty, so helpful. So we'll, we'll pass it over to you Mark. One more time.

Mark Saint-Amour (22:48):

Yeah. Again, thank you so much for having me. I super appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you so much. Y'all have a good one.

Megan Riksen (22:55):

Thanks again. So as you've listened to this episode today, you know, it, might've brought up more questions of how to actually tackle this huge thing of career in your own life. So we just, you know, as an every episode, we want you to know that you are able to come to see us in the career center. We are happy to talk with you and really take an individualized approach to your specific situation, how comfortable you are with sharing certain aspects of yourself. And just, you know, to really kind of go through all of that so that your resume feels authentic to who you are while still feeling safe. As Mark mentioned in a previous response, and of course, keep in mind the LGBT center as well as a great place for connection and resources. So anything else that you can think of today, Brian, that you wanted to cover?

Brian Bossick (23:57):

I just wanted to echo, I think exactly what you said, Megan, thank you, Mark for taking the time to talk to us into our students and providing such valuable advice. And I think really stressing the importance of connection and finding resources and advocates that you can turn to, to help you through this process. So thank you for taking the time and, and helping us and our students learn in this, in this journey.

Megan Riksen (24:20):

Great. All right. Well, thanks so much to everyone for listening today, and we hope you tune into a future episode soon.