[Transition Music]

Carlos Martinez (03:11):

Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening and welcome back to another Work like a Laker podcast. I'm Carlos Martinez.

 

Megan Riksen (3:18):

And I'm Megan Riksen.

 

Carlos Martinez (3:21).

 And you know, like always, we've got a couple of guests with us today. A first stop is Mary Bower Russa who was a professor of psychology at Grand Valley. And then Alexis Shewe, who's a senior academic advisor in our College of Liberal arts and Cciences here in the Academic Advising Center. But I will let both of them kind of give a little brief introduction in, in their own words. Mary, do you want to get us started?

Mary Bower Russa (03:45):

So I'm Mary Bower Russa. I'm professor of psychology. I'm actually a clinical psychologist and with a health psychology emphasis and I'm the assistant department chair with a focus on advising. I've been here at grand Valley for about 22 years.

Alexis Schewe (04:00):

Okay. And I'm Alexis Shewe. I have been at grand Valley for about three years. I have been in the college of liberal arts and sciences advising center for a year. And in that role I specifically advise students who are pre-professional.

Carlos Martinez (04:17):

Alright, awesome. And you know, the, the conversation today is all about graduate school. So again, I guess I'll just start around just asking you in the room, has everyone here gone to grad school? Yeah. Right, right. Yes, yes. Yeah. So I know I got my master’s in education here at Grand Valley and it was a little nontraditional. I was working full time while I did it

Megan Riksen (04:38):

And I did my master’s program at grand Valley as well. Masters of education. But it's slightly more traditional cause I was able to do that on a full time basis. Yeah.

Mary Bower Russa (04:50):

So I was at the university of Iowa for my graduate school. I did a PhD program in psychology with an emphasis in clinical and I did get a master's degree along the way, but it was embedded into the PhD program, so

Alexis Schewe (05:03):

 And I did my master's at St. Cloud State University and College Counseling and Student Development. Like you Carlos, I was also working full time and trying to do school part time, full time, everything in between. Yeah.

Carlos Martinez (05:17):

Alright, awesome. And you know, in all of our current roles, we're usually one of the, the point of references for students who were, who were thinking of going to graduate school. Right. You know, sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't. But, but in your opinions, what are some good reasons why somebody may decide that grad school is that right choice for them?

Mary Bower Russa (05:37):

I find from the, in the department where I am, which is the psychology department, I find that students often decide to go into graduate school because what they want to do career wise requires it. So, when we talk about what you can do with a bachelor's degree versus what you can do with a master's or PhD, they may decide for example that they want to do something that involves working as a counselor, and to work as a counselor typically require more specialization beyond the bachelor's level.

Also, if they want to work in an academic setting as a professor for example, that would require graduate school or to do specialized research.

Alexis Schewe (06:14):

Yeah. For the students that I work with who are pre-professional they have to have a love of learning and a love of school and a love of science. All of those things have to come together. It's always funny when students say, well, I want to be a doctor but I don't like school. That's just part of the process.

 

Megan Riksen (6: 30):

I'm just going to jump in. Can you quick define pre-professional for us?

 

Alexis Schewe (6:35):

I'm going to define it how Grand Valley defines it. Pre-Professional includes anybody who is pre-med, pre-dental, pre-optometry, pre-pharmacy, pre-chiropractic, pre-podiatry and pre-veterinary.  are the class advising center where I work does not advise students who are pre-occupational therapy, physical therapy, physicians assisting because we have the college of health professions. So those students are directed there.

 

 

 

Megan Riksen (7:08):

So, in both of your roles, you're meeting often with students, right?

Who are exploring what graduate school is and what that might look like for them. Can you both just kind of speak to what that exploration looks like? Is it, you're looking at specific schools, is it looking at specific programs? I'm sure it's both. So talk to me about kind of that process of exploration.

 

 

Alexis Schewe (7:33):

Yeah. We, we joke in our office about kind of the Grey's anatomy syndrome that somebody who wants to be a doctor, they've maybe, you know, you know what it looks like on TV, how it's kind of glamorized, but you really have to shadow people who are doing the work that you want to do.

In fact, shadowing is something you have to have a significant number of hours that are documented that you're putting on your applications. And ideally you have a professional, a doctor, an optometrist, the dentist, somebody who's writing you a letter of recommendation that agrees that you would be a great fit for the field.

So, when students are in their very first year, if they're freshmen coming in with this dream of being you know, going to professional school or if this is something that they've been at Grand Valley and they're starting to discover it, we say, get out there and see it. Because if you spend some time in the office, you see it and it's not what you thought it was, then let's go, let's go back and start thinking about what the best career would be.

Mary Bower Russa (08:32):

I, I would agree that usually students sometimes don't think in enough depth about what it would actually entail when they work in this role professionally or what it will take to get them into that role professionally. So especially with our students we don't have a lot of them, but we have some that want to do a PhD program. And so a student that comes in and says, I, I think I want to do a PhD program that doesn't have a good grade point. You know, it's going to be really tricky for them to have the dedication. And, and even in some cases the academic skill to be able to get through a five-year really rigorous program. So one of the things I will often tell students when they're on the fence, I'm like, I don't really know whether I want to get a PhD.

I usually say, you know, you need to really think carefully because if you don't know, there's a good chance that you don't want to get a PhD. Even students that really feel like I'm really ready to put in those five years, sometimes find a year or two and that the program is really long and that they're just on.

And so, sort of thinking about what it would entail if you were to actually do the program. And do you have the skills to be not only competitive to get into the program, but to be successful in completing the program and will it get you to this career that you would enjoy?

Carlos Martinez (09:40):

Yeah. You know, and speaking of admissions, one of the things I've been seen, not necessarily professional programs but some of the social sciences at least it's still very small but a trend towards schools here and there announcing things like no longer requiring GREs or adapting the way that they evaluate their students to try and take account for the fact that Hey, maybe your first two years you were still figuring it out and you struggled a bit and it has changed. Is that something you ever discussed with students that either of you advice?

Mary Bower Russa (10:13):

I definitely have seen it with students and it depends. I completely agree with you that that has been a trend that people are thinking sort of more holistically about applicants than they have traditionally. And there are some areas where they weigh grade point and test scores and that sort of thing very heavily. They still have a rather traditional view.

And there are other areas where they're increasingly looking at a variety of other things, including life experiences that you have and even not some nontraditional experiences and they may even gravitate towards somebody that has a more unique background in comparison to other applicants rather than looking at those traditional things. In psychology it depends a bit on which disciplines you're looking at. There are some disciplines that seem to be much more interested in that holistic view than others.

Alexis Schewe (10:59):

I would agree. Holistic is the word that professional schools use. We talk about academics being like the metrics, the test scores, the GPA, the experiences and the personal attributes. Distance traveled is a term that is often used where someone has come from their journey, their family, their background, all of that goes into would this person be a good provider in a clinical setting?

Megan Riksen (11:24):

So what are some of those ways that students are then proving those things about themselves? All of those metrics. That seems pretty straightforward. You take the GRE, you take the M cat, whatever you need to do for your particular school. But what are some of those other elements that go into the admissions process?

 

 

Alexis Scheme (11:41):

All of the professional areas are service oriented. You know, you have to be willing to give of your time give of who you are, helping other people. So demonstrating that through volunteering and service is really important. That can be experience or healthcare related volunteer experience. But we also encourage students to find what are you passionate about, what are those things that maybe you've always been excited about through your whole life and continue those when you come to Grand Valley or spend some time finding new passions and be willing to go out and volunteer and serve others in that way.

In fact, yesterday I was just at [inaudible], we were looking at Dega J, which is a organization in Grand Rapids that focuses on helping the homeless through dignity and respect. And they have some healthcare programs that they do. And we were trying to find ways that professional students could perhaps get in there and see homelessness firsthand.

And have a better understanding of some of the issues that homeless individuals face and maybe being able to serve in that capacity so that could just be sitting with somebody and talking with them through a meal and that's a way to show that their service. There's also a way to go and volunteer through a hospital and in those clinical settings and show that you have that interest in that heart for service.

Mary Bower Russa (12:59):

Yeah, I would say with a lot of the students that we see that want to go on to get a master's or a PhD, that demonstrating that they really are passionate about this particular subject area is important and it's important for students to realize that sometimes, actually frequently, students choose to switch that subject area.

Between the bachelor's and the master's program, I have run into a number of students who sort of have the misconception that if you have a bachelor's degree in one area, that if you want to go onto further studies, you have to stay in that same area. And so psychology majors think that the only option is to go on in psychology when in fact psychology majors often can go on in areas like social work areas like counseling and can even go into areas like law with the psychology major without additional coursework.

So I think understanding that there's really a range of options available, but then demonstrating that you haven't just randomly chosen this direction that you want to go, but that it actually, there's a story that you can tell where you have explored this interest in some reasonable depth and have come to a point where you feel confident that this is the area that you would want to specialize in.

 I think that sometimes when students don't, aren't thoughtful kind of in advance about that, it makes it tricky in the application to convince people that you are sure that you're committed to this particular area in a way that would want a program to invest in a couple of years of training.

Carlos Martinez (14:22):

Yeah. And I'm really glad you brought that up because I've come across that advising students in the past who feel that they're limited to a particular area of graduate school. And you know, what I always share with them is that as long as you've taken some of the, the recognized prerequisites for that program, there are many that will give you an opportunity in both professional and it comes to some of the more traditional graduate programs as well.

And so, it doesn't always mean you have to add a minor or a double major, something to catch up because you, you know, you changed your mind senior year. It might just mean that you take a couple of summer classes or that you are in some cases they will even do a they'll vary the worst type of probationary type of admission status where you're admitted to the program conditionally based on a certain grade. If your grades were a little lower or based on the completion of a certain classes are higher.

And so, a key thing here, just like when you were applying to your bachelor schools right out of high school, you really want to speak to that graduate, the PR department because there could be some ways that they'll work with you that aren't, you know, readily evident if you just take a quick glance at their website.

Mary Bower Russa (15:32):

Yeah, I think that that's absolutely the case. And as you mentioned, even sometimes where students are doing the research and discovering that they don't have maybe the gray point that's required depending on the area, that there may be some flexibility with that. So I think that is a very good point.

Alexis Schewe (15:47):

One of the things that I'm thinking about for professional students is it's a very short timeframe from the time that they start their undergrad. If they started at grand Valley to the time that they are taking their M cat or their dat, whatever the professional school test is and their application.

And we tell students, don't be, don't be afraid of a gap year or a growth year or some time out. You know, applying to professional school doesn't have to happen immediately following your graduation from your bachelor's degree. And when you think about all the things that go into having a strong dental application or pharmacy application, sometimes there's just not enough time to get all that in and keep up the grades and get all the experiences.

So we encourage them to be okay with graduating and if that means you have to take some time off to work and get that experience, or if the grades aren't there, if your grades are not competitive at that time, we encourage them to maybe look at, we call it post-back work that could be going on to do a master's and demonstrating that in sort of a graduate program that you can do a heavy science course load and kind of reduce some of that risk of maybe being admitted to professional school or just taking a couple courses.

Maybe it's just a couple of prerequisites and they can really demonstrate a strong academic performance that way. But we try to tell students that it doesn't have to fall into that four year traditional bachelor's program. There's no right formula or timeframe. It's very individualistic.

Carlos Martinez (17:17):

Yeah. I've also seen students who will just work for that gap year. Also, I was working with a student who who's strongly considering medical school but they weren't a hundred percent set on it and they've taken many of the pre-recs and so what they decided to do was to get a job in the health field and so even if it's not working directly with clients, they're at least within that realm, in that space, since they've got the academic foundation, they were pretty confident in the grates aspect of it and you know, talk to your academic advisors, talk to your professors, come to the Career Center and we can work out some of these questions with you.

If we don't have all the answers, we can steer you in that right direction or connect with some folks who will.

Megan Riksen (17:55):

And I'll say from kind of that gap year perspective, I work mostly with our students in the college of business and I often have students coming saying, really? I really like school. I think I want to just keep going straight from my MBA. And I like to have that conversation that is that really the best move right now? So speaking specifically for an MBA, kind of a nice to have a few years of experience under your belt to bring into that classroom setting for an MBA.

Because I mean, especially for that program, super applied to the work environment that hopefully you're already have had some exposure to. Whereas it might be a little different. You can't practice medicine without the proper degrees. Right? But you can certainly have a job in supply chain without an MBA and the MBA just might take you to the next level.

So, it is just, I mean like everything in life, right? It's so just dependent on what the program is, what your goals are with that and it, yeah, it might make sense to take a gap year or two or three or four. Right. What, how do you feel like from, from your perspective, Mary?

Mary Bower Russa (19:09):

Oh, I think that that's definitely the case. I think especially one issue that we see that I think you also mentioned with the professional students is that it can be really hard for those students that really want a PhD. It can be really hard to get in the experience to be competitive for that.

The slots are very, very competitive and so especially it's even harder for students that maybe transfer here. So they're two years into their program by the time they come here. And it really literally only gives them a year to get to know faculty and get some additional experiences they want.

And so, then it's helpful often for them to take an additional year off and get some more research experience, especially for PhD to get to know faculty better, understand the academic setting a little bit more and that sort of thing.

And for students often who are not looking at going to PhDs, they may still be unclear on what direction they want to go at the master's level. And so often getting experience working in human services, working with mental health populations can help them more clearly to find their interests.

We had a student in our lab that last year was planning to go to a PhD clinical program and at the last-minute kind of pulled the plug on it, took a year off working for the courts and now she's going to law school. And so one of the things that we often stress with our students is it's not a failure if you take a year off. In fact, it can be a very wise opportunity to personally grow and explore your interests and a really much better solution than to push yourself to go straight through kind of prematurely and then discover that you've gotten a degree that isn't really what your passion is.

Carlos Martinez (20:39):

I'll add one more tidbit since we're kind of on the topic of reasons why you shouldn't maybe go to graduate school in career services, Meagan and I will often meet with folks who they've graduated six months ago, a year ago, and they're very unsatisfied in their current job or they're struggling to find a job that they, that they, that they feel comfortable with and they assume automatically that they need a master's degree.

And so a question I always ask them is if you could fulfill your career objective for goals without a master's, which you still go right. Cause oftentimes it's not a case of needing a master's. It's that they just don't have any relevant experiences and maybe they stay at their job and they can volunteer in a related field for a couple of months and then they kind of bridge that gap.

It could be that rather than a whole master's degree, they could pay way less and just complete a certificate program or a certification in an area. And so you really want to ask yourself, does this make sense for me? Because you know, for, for most students that would also mean going into a little bit of more debt. It's going to mean time commitment. It's, it's a huge factor that you have to consider from so many different angles.

Mary Bower Russa (21:48):

I agree. And actually I want to jump on that and just say one more thing. In psychology, we have professional programs that are CIDY programs that are, that are applied clinical programs, and they really do market themselves to students that want to get that doctoral degree, but that aren't as strong applicants for a PhD program. That tends to be extremely selective.

And the challenge with these programs for students is that the costs are exorbitant, like $65,000 a year for four years. So they really encourage students to run up $250,000 of debt. And so, I think that the notion that you just raised of really asking yourself, is this something that I need in order to do what I want to do?

And what I often talk with students about is the fact that you can do similar sort of counseling with a master's degree and not run up that kind of debt. And so just being sort of knowledgeable and getting that information from career services, from faculty members and from exploration online so that you make sure that you really are knowledgeable about what career you're interested in and what it takes to do that rather than just choosing to do something because somebody told you it was a good idea or because other people are doing it.

Megan Riksen (22:55):

What advice do either of you have around finding those people in your life who are going to help kind of guide and mentor you throughout this process? Because right? I mean, even when I'm working with students who aren't looking to go to grad school, who are just looking for a job and trying to figure out what they want to do, it still is really, really helpful to talk to people who have already been there and done that.

And the nice thing about graduate school, at least from the academic side, is you have this whole group of faculty members here. So I guess let's start with you, Mary, in terms of how do you find a faculty mentor who might align with kind of what you're thinking about?

Mary Bower Russa (23:34):

In our in our department, there are so many faculty with so many different kinds of emphases and in our area in psychology because there's only one area that actually gives you a license if you're interested in getting a license and seeing patients in a counseling role, you're really best off by talking to somebody who is in the clinical arena where they actually are in a discipline where they have a license.

But really no matter what interests’ people are exploring, I think finding a faculty member who, it looks like your interests aligned with somebody who does similar sorts of things. We have faculty who do school psychology and so they're always the best resources for anybody interested in working in the schools or in more of an educational domain. And so, looking at the alignment of interests between you and the faculty member.

And I think also often students make connections with faculty maybe in classes that they've taken where they enjoy the class and they get to know the faculty member a little bit. And so those can often be good people to go to if you feel like there was a connection in class because it may be easier to talk with them and to be open with them about what it is you're looking for in you may have a better rapport.

So, and I always think career services, you know, our career services people are fabulous and really are very dedicated to helping our students with questions that they have related to careers. And so they may also be a good resource, especially if you are maybe looking at an area that's outside your specific major. Faculty attend to be very knowledgeable within that specific major.

But they often aren't as knowledgeable about the breath beyond it where Career services can have a broader scope and maybe connect you with another department if it looks like your future interests align better with faculty in a different department.

Alexis Schewe (25:17):

I would put a quick plug again for shadowing, won't go great into depth because we've already talked about it, but that would be one of the best things. If you can shadow and you really click with somebody who potentially could be a mentor. And I tell students don't expect that your first shadowing is going to produce a mentor. You probably have to do a couple of different sessions, see different settings, maybe click with somebody.

But something else I would recommend is our pre-professional student organizations. So, using mentors who are maybe junior, if you're a freshmen or sophomore, a junior or senior, somebody who is a little further along by a year or two in the process.

They can share what the application was like. They can share what their interviews were like. We often have students who go on to professional school and will contact us and say, I remember when somebody came and talked to our student organization, Now I'm in my third year and I'd love to come back and talk to the Pre-dental group. If anybody has questions, please send them my way. So I think there's really something to be said for other students who are still in the process. Who can really be helpful.

Carlos Martinez (26:21):

You know, they are that that mentoring is so key and you know, many students will, will realize quickly that there are great benefits to finding a faculty mentor as well when, when they enter that program, right.

Be it a professional program, clinical program, et cetera. Do you have any thoughts on maybe finding a mentor connecting with faculty who can guide you through the process once you enter graduate school?

Mary Bower Russa (26:46):

I think that's absolutely critical that connecting with somebody in your graduate program and for most students that are applying to graduate school, they're looking for somebody when they're selecting schools to apply to.

They're looking for a faculty member that has interests that are again aligned with theirs and that's going to go on to help to mentor them in that discipline that they're getting more expertise in.

And so, it's definitely the case when people are looking at graduate school that they need to be looking at what are the faculty specifically doing? Does it fit with their interests? And when students actually go to interview, I tell them to always, you know, look, look carefully at the people who you are thinking you might want to have as mentors and ask questions about what it's like to work with them and what their mentorship style is. Because those really will become your anchors as you try to develop the specialization and the skill in this area. You know, in your graduate studies.

Carlos Martinez (27:41):

Oh, that's awesome. Exams. Exam is the cost for a ton of anxiety for students considering graduate school. Right. You hear all the, you know, all the acronyms, GRE G mat L sat, M cat. I think it's important to talk to different sources personally who have taken that exam. You know, I'll give you one example. I advise legal study students and one of the events we host will be a panel every year.

We actually hosted in October, happened a few weeks back. Well we're recording this in October, so when it comes out in November. Also be a few weeks back. So it happened mid-October you know, a few years ago. One of the lawyers says, there's no real way to prepare for an outset. All you have to do was study and develop the skillset, but you can't really prepare for what's about to come.

This year we had an attorney who said, yes, you can prepare and I guarantee you if you study every time you take it, you can go up by this gym, you know, and he gave a range that he thought was realistic if you start to study schedule, right, because we're all different when we take exams and so it's good to get different feedback on it.

Do either of you have thoughts on, on studying or preparing for some of these major exams?

 

 

Alexis Scheme (28:57):

Absolutely. I tend to tell students come into it with a one and done. Don't take the MCAT is for med students. Oat is for optometry students. Dat is for dental and P Kat is for pharmacy. Those are the four that I primarily work with.

And while they can be retaken, you know, those scores are official. When you take it the first time and the schools will see what that first attempt is. So don't use the official exam as a practice. There are practice exams out there. That is what they are for. We recommend take a practice exam early in your preparation so you can really gauge where are those areas that you need to improve. And making sure you're not going to cram for the M cat. You're not going to take two weeks and study everything you need. We're talking kind of preparation and being ready to take it.

So long time. Take the time, think about a study plan. There are hundreds of companies out there that will allow you to pay and get some type of study system or study plan. That is fine. We, we offer, we give students that information.

They can also use a lot of the free resources that are out there and create their own study guide. So, it's important, like you said, Carlos, to talk to people, find out what others have done and find out what kind of study prep is going to work for you.

I am just going to mention in the class advising center, we do a test prep course every in the winter semester on Thursday nights from six to nine. It's a test prep review. So, we have faculty come in, our chemistry faculty will come in, we'll do a gen chem night and orgo chem night, a physics night.

So, students get that subject review that is supposed to help kind of dust off some of those concepts and get them ready to take the test ideally that upcoming spring or summer.

Mary Bower Russa (30:46):

I would agree with the whole notion of don't take this as a practice test. I mean we definitely know that with almost any test that somebody takes, there's a practice effect and so your scores go up. They do tend to go up each time that you take it up until they sort of plateau and that you want to actually get that practice effect so that you're hitting your top score when you actually take the exam and not after you've already taken it for one time.

And so as similar, I would say my advice tends to be similar. This is usually what the GRE, our students are taking the GRE, which has sort of generally used in a lot of the social science and, and kind of college of liberal arts areas when people are going to graduate school and it has two sections. It has a verbal and a quantitative section.

We find that students certainly need to study for both of these sections and be very familiar with the format of the test to be very comfortable with what the instructions look like so that they can feel less anxious at the exam and feel that they're well prepared to use their time well. But it's definitely the case that for most students who aren't in a major that is heavily quantitative, that the quantitative skills can be challenging.

Because many people have come in and actually spent a couple years focusing on other things. And so those math skills that they may have had at the high school level that are now being tested, they haven't really used.

And so, we certainly suggest that students’ study for each portion of it. But I usually tell students that it's easier to raise your grade on the quantitative section by putting in studies time than to do it on the verbal section.

And so, to the extent that they're able to, they really need to make sure that they put a good focus on studying for that section and re review formulas and the use of those formulas that they may have completely forgotten.

And you know, especially if it was something where math was not conceptually difficult for them, but they just haven't used it for a while, that can really bump their score up significantly. But definitely preparing and, and also recognizing, I think for some students that your life does not end when you don't get the score that you want on these tests are very important.

Often put a lot of pressure on themselves. They will you know, they don't get quite the score they want and then they'll spend three more months studying and try to take it again. And I always tell them, if you've prepared really well the first time, take the score and then let's, let's take a look at what options are available to you.

It can be really hard if you're trying to study and take the exam again at the same time you're trying to, trying to put together applications. It just creates so much stress that you don't get further ahead.

 

 

Alexis Scheme (33:12):

So, I did wanna mention in our CLAS advising center, we have a resource room. We try to keep some materials in there for the different professional test students can come in and check those materials out. So those are free.

And on our website, we also specifically for medical students, AMC materials, students can purchase those through a discount through our office cause we have an affiliation with them.

 

Mary Bower Russa (33:38):

And for the GRE, just speaking of resources, the GRE website is gre.org and if you go there, they have two full practice tests that you can take and get the scores from online for free.

And then additionally you know, there are a variety as you mentioned of courses that you can take that are paid courses to prepare. But I usually tell students that if you're a relatively strong student you often are able, you don't need to pay for those courses. Sometimes students get really anxious and say, well I can't do this because I don't have $5,000 to take this course.

You can buy preparation books that have disks available in them where you can take the tests, you can practice, score them, you can get feedback on your performance.  This is definitely not something where you need to take one of the paid courses, unless that helps you discipline yourself with regard to study time, I would say.

Carlos Martinez (34:23):

Yeah. And you know, on the topic of the financials, many of these exams, I would say all but I'm not a hundred percent sure. I will say many of them also have a fee waiver for the actual exam of if you're going through some financial hardships, each one of their process might look a bit different, but you shouldn't let that discourage you from taking the exam either.

Alexis Schewe (34:43):

And it's good to know that when you take the GRE, I don't know whether it's the case for the MCAT and the others, you do have free score reports that you can request at the time that you take it that are already included in the fee that you've paid. And so knowing ahead of time, at least a couple of schools that you think you may apply to, allows you to actually use those free score reports so that you don't have to request all of them later. And sometimes students feel uncertain about that because they're not a hundred percent sure they're applying.

And so, they're afraid that they shouldn't send a score report unless they're sure they're applying. And so I always assure students that if it turns out that you send the GRE scores and then you don't follow through with an application, it's really no problem from the standpoint of that institution. They'll toss the scores and it's really no problem. So if you have schools that you may be applying to and you don't know, three for sure, I'm putting those three in still can be helpful. Financially.

Mary Bower Russa (35:38):

It’s the same for Professional schools. When they're setting up for the test, they can say, you know, check all, I'd say, why wouldn't you? There's no harm in doing it. There's no cost to do it that way.

Carlos Martinez (35:49):

On the topic of finances, right. So we'll, we'll start wrapping up our conversation. Graduate school is expensive, we kind of hinted at it earlier. Yes. Most students have probably gone through some form of FAFSA and they understand that there are loans available. What are some of the different ways that that both of you are seeing students fund graduate school?

Alexis Schewe (36:11):

For professional students? It's loans. I've been to a number of admissions events where students, professional students will be on panels and they'll say it's almost impossible to work while you are in med school or dental school. Now occasionally you might have a student who has like an eight EMT license or they might nanny some of the kind of odd jobs that they can do.

But really, they're probably going to be using loans to fund schooling. There are some scholarships, merit based scholarships that students are applying early. They potentially could qualify for some of those. And we'll get questions every now and then. Regarding military scholarships, there's the health professions scholarship fund where you will, they will pay for your tuition to attend professional school and then in turn your residency really is, is done through the military. So that is an option.

And some of the public loan forgiveness, you know, if somebody goes in and works in a nonprofit setting I see that in medical schools with primary care, dental is another thing. So depending on where you work later on, you might have some loan forgiveness as well.

 

 

Mary Bower Russa: (37:23):

And I actually had been telling students about the loan forgiveness for the CyD programs cause we already mentioned how expensive those are. And it is where they think checking online just to see the status of that program because that is somewhat political and sometimes with political changes, those things end up on the chopping block.

That has been a nice strategy for students that actually meet the requirements for it. You have to make sure that if you're planning to do it, that you read the fine print extremely carefully because there are a variety of ways in which students become ineligible for it.

But I agree it's a great program. We for for PhD programs typically in psychology and I believe this is true in a variety of other disciplines as well. You actually end up often getting a nice financial support package to do those programs. And so it will include at least a partial tuition waiver.

Typically, in state tuition if you're at a school that is out of state and often a significant stipend that is associated with either assisting with teaching classes or assisting a faculty member with doing their research. So the nice thing about that is that you are simultaneously getting assistance to get through the program and getting experience will help you become more marketable when you get out and are looking for a job.

And so, that that in addition to loans, I mean for most people that doesn't fully cover their financial costs, but it is very helpful. Most of the PhD programs are full time programs and so students are unlikely to be working on the side. And the sense of being helpful at the master's level, it's much more likely that students can find programs. And I think you guys described some experiences with that yourself where at the master's level there may be programs that you can pace things kind of in a way that works for you around a work schedule.

And so, it's easier with many of those programs to be working and taking classes at the same time. And some strong students, even in masters programs get financial packages. A lot of it depends on when you're looking at graduate programs correctly, assessing how strong you are as an applicant relative to their applicant pool. And whenever you're accepted and look maybe a little bit stronger than the other applicants in the pool, you may end up getting some nice funding to attract you to this program.

Carlos Martinez (39:36):

Yeah. Yeah. There, there are plenty of graduate assistantships at a certain school. So we have an example at Grand Valley, even if your, your department does informally sort of announced a grad assistantship, a graduate student can still reach out to a different department and if they both agree, they can get, you know, is it all or most of tuition covered? Yeah. Yeah. So it'll depend on the package, but, but again, it helps out a lot.

My grad school was paid for it through my employer. Thank you, Grand Valley. Well, yeah, but, but that's another one. I've seen students in the past negotiate some sort of tuition reimbursement. And so they couldn't get the, the extra salary bump they wanted, but they were able to negotiate things like tuition reimbursement or in full or at a, at a nice percentage.

And so these are things that you can kind of wiggle into it and you're a hundred percent right. Some programs are essentially built for working professionals where all the classes are after five or six o'clock and they'll have some hypertrophic online options also.

Mary Bower Russa (40:37):

And Pine Rest is a nice one locally who actually provides a stipend so that if you're working at Pine Rest a certain number of hours a week and then choose to go to graduate school they give you some assistance with the cost with that. So that's an example of a local employer that's very helpful.

Alexis Schewe (40:51):

I was going to mention Cherry Street Health does an AmeriCorps program. AmeriCorps in general is great cause it's kind of a short-term commitment like a year of, of domestic service for a gap year. And when you get a stipend to live on, it's not a lot, but you get a stipend to live on during that year. And then one of the biggest benefits is you get some of that.

 I got tuition reimbursement or tuition scholarship that you could use for graduate school or past loans if you're trying to knock off some debt.

 

Megan Riksen (41:23):

Right. Absolutely. So yeah, as we kind of wrap up here, I just wanted to end with if we all could just share a few of our favorite resources to direct students to, to maybe do a little bit of their research.

I'll share that. Grand Valley, we do have a path to graduate school website. Gvsu.Edu/Path GPE which is linked to from the career centers website as well. But that gives you some information on some of the components we haven't talked about, like a personal statement, how to research schools individually, things like that. So any other, just last minute resources you, you'd love to point to?

Alexis Schewe (42:01):

I would say our pre-professional advising a website on the class advising website on pre-professional. We have our fact sheets, we have application process. We were just talking prior to this podcast starting, we have a YouTube series on personal statements, number of things we try to put on that website and of course meet with your pre-professional and pre-health advisor every semester.

 

Mary Bower Russa (42:29):

 Yes. And I would say in, in the, in psychology we're trying to get better resources up under jobs and careers. So if you just go to the psych department website, you'll see that I think for anybody in any discipline. I love the O*net system which is, Oh and then asterisk net its own net.com I believe.

And if you go in there, you can search with any career name and it not only gives you an exhaustive detail what this career looks like, what the job outlook is, what sort of tasks you would be involved in, how much you're sitting versus standing, how much you're on the phone.

I mean, I think it's really the best information you can get short of the shadowing, which I also is agree as fabulous about a whole host of careers. And if you're looking at one sort of career, it also pops up a list of many other similar careers so that you can begin to search maybe even again outside the area where you've majored, if you want to slant a slightly different direction. It's a ton of really good information.

On our website we have a lot of information under jobs and careers and the career services website is fabulous. O*net is also accessible from there as well as a variety of other resources on kind of what I can do with this major that you can go into that what can I do with this major? And you can click in and they have a candid careers series that is short, two to three minute clips that actually have people talking about their careers. So another way to begin to kind of get a feel for what these other careers might be like if you're kind of searching and not sure what direction you want to go.

Carlos Martinez (43:53):

You know, I used to work in Admissions, so I'm biased. My, my advice is go directly to the department, go directly to that school. If you can visit, visit, if not set up a phone appointment, some schools will host webinars on their programs, but you really want to get as much information from the source before making that final decision on whether or not to attend. And then if you're attending, which is the right fit for you as a student.

Thank you both so much for your time. We really appreciate all these lessons. I'm going to post some of the, the resources that we just shared on, on the description. So just check the description of this episode and you'll be able to, you know, have some fun searching the net to get started. And I'll post both of their department websites. So if you want to reach out to them directly, you have a direct link to them that way. All right. Thank you all for joining us.

 

Mary:

Thanks very much.